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Robert Kimball

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GCA's JohnV on Lee's Tree
« on: June 14, 2012, 08:53:23 AM »
Good article on Lee's Tree from GCAs John Van der Borght. I think John still posts from time to time; he also has a cool blog http://freedrop.wordpress.com

 
http://www.usopen.com/en_US/news/articles/2012-06-11/201206111339456332512.html


Lee Janzen’s Ball Falls from Tree

Monday, June 11, 2012

San Francisco – During the final round of the 1998 U.S. Open at The Olympic Club’s Lake Course, Lee Janzen’s tee shot on the par-4 fifth hole flew into an area of large cypress trees to the right of the fairway. He walked to the area where he believed his ball had come to rest and began a search for it. After two or three minutes, he became convinced that he would not be able to find the ball and started walking back to the tee to hit another ball. Moments after he began that return, a gust of wind blew the ball down from a tree. You can read more about this incident and a similar incident that happened to Tommy Nakajima in the 1987 US Open here. But what are the Rules involved in these incidents?

The Definition of “Lost Ball” states that a ball is deemed “lost” in five different cases. The one that most golfers are familiar with is when the player has searched for five minutes and has not found or identified his ball (Rule 27-1c –Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes). When Janzen arrived at the area where the ball is likely to be and began searching, the clock was started.  Since he started to return to the tee before the five-minute period had elapsed, his ball was still not lost.  He could not declare the ball lost as the Rules do not allow a player to declare his ball lost.

When the ball fell from the tree within 5 minutes of the time that he had begun searching for it and he had not yet put another ball into play, he was allowed to return to the area to determine if it was his ball. Once he had identified the ball as his, he continued play that ball and made a miraculous par 4.

Which of the four other ways that a ball would be deemed lost could have applied in this case?

Janzen’s intent on returning to the tee was to put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Lost Ball – case “C”). Even though five minutes might not have elapsed, putting another ball into play in this manner makes the original ball lost. A ball is put into play in different ways depending on where the player is playing from. In Janzen’s case, he would have been putting the ball into play from the teeing ground. The Definition of “Ball in Play” says that a ball is in play from the teeing ground when the player has made a stroke at it.

Therefore, even if he had teed the ball when his original ball fell from the tree within 5 minutes he could have still played the original ball.  Had he played his original ball from an area through the green or in a hazard he would have been required to drop a ball where he had last played.  In that case, the moment he dropped a substituted ball it would have become his ball in play (Rule 20-4 – When Ball Dropped or Placed is in Play) and the original ball would be deemed lost.

Had Janzen realized that his ball might be lost before he left the teeing ground after his original stroke, he could have played a provisional ball (Rule 27-2 – Provisional Ball). Provisional balls may be played whenever a player believes his ball may be out of bounds or lost somewhere outside of a water hazard. A provisional ball must be played before the player goes forward to search for the original ball. Since he did not play a provisional before going forward to search, he could NOT go back and play one later.

The provisional ball is not the player’s ball in play until his original ball becomes lost. Another way a ball is deemed lost is when the player makes a stroke at the provisional ball from a point equal to where the original ball is believed to be or from any point nearer the hole than that point (Lost Ball – case “B”).  This means that you could potentially make multiple strokes at the provisional before reaching the area where you believe original ball finished, then search for the original and then, if you are unsuccessful in your search, you would then continue with the provisional ball.

Remember that if you find the original in bounds before the Rules deem it lost, you are required to abandon the provisional.

For more information on the Rules of Golf, go to the Rules of Golf page at http://www.usga.org or watch the Rules of Golf videos at http://www.usga-rules.com/.

Written by John Van der Borght, Manager of Rules Communications for the USGA.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA's JohnV on Lee's Tree
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 10:26:32 AM »
Rob,
John VDB no longer posts here. He also stopped blogging n freedrop. He is now the director of rules education for the USGA and will provide updates on unique rules situations which arise at the US Open as well as ating as a referee.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA's JohnV on Lee's Tree
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 10:37:56 AM »
I thought I had read in the decisions that you could play the provisional from a location past that of the original ball if you have not finished your search. For example the original ball has struck a tree and you have no idea in which direction it may have been deflected. Your provisional ball finishes near the right rough so you search the right rough for you original ball, don't find it, then play the provisional again before proceeding to the other side of the fairway to search the left rough. If found there, you can play it and avoid the penalty.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA's JohnV on Lee's Tree
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 10:53:10 AM »
Leave it to Phil to demonstrate this rule on his first swing of the tournament. 

Hole #9.  Overhooked his 3 wood into the cypress trees on the right side of the fairway.  The army of spectators couldn't locate the ball, presumably lost in one of the trees.  After five minutes, Phil hiked back to the tee to play his 3rd shot.  He recovered nicely to bogey the hole.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Andrew Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA's JohnV on Lee's Tree
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 11:09:20 AM »
I thought I had read in the decisions that you could play the provisional from a location past that of the original ball if you have not finished your search. For example the original ball has struck a tree and you have no idea in which direction it may have been deflected. Your provisional ball finishes near the right rough so you search the right rough for you original ball, don't find it, then play the provisional again before proceeding to the other side of the fairway to search the left rough. If found there, you can play it and avoid the penalty.


There's no Decision that says this. Once you play a provisional ball from the place the original ball is likely to be, or a point nearer the hole than the place the original ball is likely to be, then the original ball is lost.

Of course, not having a clue where it might be makes it hard, but I would opine that if you play the provisional hole from a point nearer the hole than the tree the ball struck, you've probably rendered the original ball lost - would have to see the place and hear the circumstances...

There is one Decision - 27-2b/6.5 - where the provisional ball closer to the hole is declared unplayable and dropped. The original ball is then found within 5 minutes of beginning the search. Then the original ball is still regarded as the ball in play.

Regards
Andrew

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA's JohnV on Lee's Tree
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 03:21:04 PM »
I thought I had read in the decisions that you could play the provisional from a location past that of the original ball if you have not finished your search. For example the original ball has struck a tree and you have no idea in which direction it may have been deflected. Your provisional ball finishes near the right rough so you search the right rough for you original ball, don't find it, then play the provisional again before proceeding to the other side of the fairway to search the left rough. If found there, you can play it and avoid the penalty.


The key part of this rule is phrase "likely to be" the actual location of the first ball isn't important, you can't play stroke with the provisional past where the original is likely to be, however.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA's JohnV on Lee's Tree
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 10:05:14 PM »
This seems like a big gray area in rules that in many places have decisions on margins so fine a razor is dull by comparison.

If I hit my ball up into a tree where it becomes stuck, and hit a provisional that finishes right next to the trunk of the same tree, is my provisional at a place that's "likely to be" the location my original ball was lost?  What I feel certain it got stuck up in the far side of the tree's canopy, so I believe my provisional lies a few yards short of where my original ball was "lost"?

Following up on that, if the second after I played another stroke with my provisional my original ball dropped down out of the tree, landing a few yards ahead of where I played my provisional (before the five minutes were up) I'd be OK and I could play my original, right?  But what if my ball dropped out of the tree BEHIND where I just played my provisional?  Does my mistaken belief that my ball was stuck on the far side of the tree carry any weight, or does the empirical evidence that it was in fact stuck on the short side of the tree as proven by it falling out behind the point where I played my shot overrule that belief and my provisional is the ball in play?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA's JohnV on Lee's Tree
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2012, 10:58:30 PM »
This seems like a big gray area in rules that in many places have decisions on margins so fine a razor is dull by comparison.

If I hit my ball up into a tree where it becomes stuck, and hit a provisional that finishes right next to the trunk of the same tree, is my provisional at a place that's "likely to be" the location my original ball was lost?  What I feel certain it got stuck up in the far side of the tree's canopy, so I believe my provisional lies a few yards short of where my original ball was "lost"?

Following up on that, if the second after I played another stroke with my provisional my original ball dropped down out of the tree, landing a few yards ahead of where I played my provisional (before the five minutes were up) I'd be OK and I could play my original, right?  But what if my ball dropped out of the tree BEHIND where I just played my provisional?  Does my mistaken belief that my ball was stuck on the far side of the tree carry any weight, or does the empirical evidence that it was in fact stuck on the short side of the tree as proven by it falling out behind the point where I played my shot overrule that belief and my provisional is the ball in play?



John used the word "believe" when he talked about the location of the original ball. All that matters is where you think it is, based on the evide.ce you have

If it somehow ended up 50 yards closer to the tee, it's not a problem.

M
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

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