How important is belt notching?

[Bart Bradley]

I have a good friend who has played 95 of the current Golf Magazine World Top 100.  His life situation and finances would certainly allow him to finish the list.  But he says "I'll probably never get there".  "I really don't see myself flying to Korea to play Nine Bridges".  "Do you really think I'd learn anything by going to see Nine Bridges?".   Frankly, I doubt he would.  In truth, he has probably already played 120 of the Top 100, just never the whole list as it existed at that moment.  I sympathize with his point of view and have honestly fancied myself a "non belt notcher".

"I just play what I want to see", I tell myself.  Proud to be free of falling to list mania.  But in 40 hours, I leave on another trip to Europe and have plans to see a couple of more Top 100s in July.  By the end of July, it turns out, I will have seen exactly half (50) of the World Top 100.  Quite a few of the courses I have left to see, truly and dearly appeal to me.  Real learning opportunities.  Or am I just fooling myself?  Am I just a closet list monger?  I expect that in 2 or 3 years, I will be in striking distance of finishing the Top 100....admiittedly, it would require significant time, money and energy to finish the list. 

I have told my friend that if he reaches 98 of the top 100, I'd kick his ass if he didn't finish the deal.  I have offered, in good faith, to pay for his trip to Korea or wherever to finish it.  It just seems like he should do it.  Why do I feel that way?

So, how many of the world top 100 do you really have to see to be an expert?  How many to have a broad perspective?  Are we all belt notchers at heart even if we don't want to admit it?  Can you really have an informed opinion if you haven't seen much? 

My friend Bill just finished the World Top 100.  He unabashedly made it his goal.  I fully congratulate him and the more I think about it, wouldn't we all like to be in his shoes given the time and money to accomplish the feat?

Run with the topic as you will....I look forward to the discussion.

Bart

[John Kavanaugh]

There are more people whose wish is to play with me than courses I need to see. 

[Chris_Hufnagel]

I consider myself very lucky to have played some great course and will add several more great ones this year...I certainly don't have the "means" (life situation and finances) to do what your friend has done and even if I aggressively went about trying to check off courses, I doubt I would get too far.

I have a goal to see as many great course as possible, but not to check them off a list or use them to brag on this board - rather to experience some thing special and learn more about this great game that I love so much.

Every year (or other year) when the lists come out, I look with great interest and enjoy the commentary on this board - but I know I will never be a "belt notcher"...

As far as being an "expert"' I would certainly not put myself in that rarified air - but I would also put my ability to review and assess courses ahead of many people who have played more "top" courses than I have...

[Bart Bradley]

Every

As far as being an "expert"' I would certainly not put myself in that rarified air - but I would also put my ability to review and assess courses ahead of many people who have played more "top" courses than I have...

Chris:  Based on what?

Bart

[Sean_A]

Bart

I admit to being amazed at guys that will get on planes for massive journies with golf as the main goal.  I don't have anything against it, but I spose that sort of thing just isn't hard wired into me.  If guys like doing this sort of thing than its important in how they view the game and thats all that really matters.   

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

There are more people whose wish is to play with me than courses I need to see. 

Would you consider these people social climbers or thrill seekers?

[Kalen Braley]

There are more people whose wish is to play with me than courses I need to see. 

Would you consider these people social climbers or thrill seekers?

Perhaps Masochists? 

[Andy Troeger]

Bart,
I like lists...my mother used to make fun of me even as a relatively little kid because I would make lists of things, so its not surprising that I enjoy these ranking lists and follow them pretty closely. While I understand that the world of golf is a heck of a lot bigger than the USA, I've pretty much stuck to the US lists because I can't pretend to have the time or the budget to go globetrotting around the world trying to pick off golf courses. I do enjoy my golf trips both as a chance to see golf courses and various parts of the country. I do think I am more likely in the long run to play golf in all 50 US states than I am to see the entirety of any version of a top 100 list. At the same time, I do know that I've played 60 of the current Digest list and intend to keep trying to see the rest when I can. I've also played 22 other courses that make one of the other US top 100 lists (GW using composite numbers, GOLF, or Links) and enjoy seeking those out as well. I'm not so much worried about the destination, however, as much as the journey. And I like to think I'm pretty good about seeing other courses of interest to me as well--there are a good number of courses in my personal top 50 that are not on the Digest list, or perhaps even any list.

I actually admire your friend for his logic in not worrying about finishing the list. Of the 40 courses left on the Digest list, I expect I could see about 30 of them without too much trouble. There are another five that might take some effort, but are places I really want to see, and then there are a few that may never happen. I'm ok with that, because I've enjoyed the ride and have met a lot of wonderful people along the way. Perhaps if I get really close I'll change my mind about finishing, but only time will tell.

I imagine all that makes me a belt-notcher, and I'm ok with that.  

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Every

As far as being an "expert"' I would certainly not put myself in that rarified air - but I would also put my ability to review and assess courses ahead of many people who have played more "top" courses than I have...

Chris:  Based on what?

Bart

Bart, I assumed you would ask that...

That is only my perception - not based in fact, any evidence, or something concrete I could produce if demanded.  

My only rationale is the following:

1. The amount of time (inordinate and obsessive are two adjectives my wife would probably use) I have invested in reading and studying about golf course design.
2. The composite list of courses I have been fortunate enough to play (and walk).
3. The quality of dialogue I have been able to engage in with people about golf course design which has served to augment #1 above.
4. A educational and professional background that includes both design and aesthetic experiences which I believe are relevant to the study of golf course design.
5. My high school and college summers spent as a caddie and greenskeeper.
5. I have played with golfers who have "notched" more courses than me to date, but it was done in the pursuit of "belt notching" - not learning more about this game or more about the grounds on which this game is played upon.  These individuals are more concerned about their game that day or fitting the course into their understanding of golf course design - not necessarily reviewing or learning more about course design.

Not sure if that helps or not - and again, just my opinion...

[John Kavanaugh]

There are more people whose wish is to play with me than courses I need to see. 

Would you consider these people social climbers or thrill seekers?

Tim,

You tell me, I believe you are firmly in the "Gotta Get Me Some Kavanaugh" camp. I have had so many fine and generous people ask me to join them for a game that it would be selfish to play alone somewhere just because of the course. Personally, I don't get it but choose not to fight it. It's good to be a notch.

[Matthew Rose]

Right now I'm on zero. I think I'd be happy if I just got to five. I'll never get on most of the great private clubs of the world, and that's okay. I think if everybody played them, they'd probably cease to be special.

It'd be nice just to get a taste.

[John Kavanaugh]

Right now I'm on zero. I think I'd be happy if I just got to five. I'll never get on most of the great private clubs of the world, and that's okay. I think if everybody played them, they'd probably cease to be special.

It'd be nice just to get a taste.

Mathew,

All it takes is patience. I was in my 40's when I played my first top 100 course and need to join it first. There is nothing wrong with collecting golf course plays. This thread, started by someone wo sells the experience, makes it seem like a bad thing.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Bart,
I do not give any weight to belt notching, certainly I can appreciate those that have the means and the connections to do it though.

What I do rate very highly are golfers that are passionate about the architecture, who have or are working toward playing their own personal top 10/25/50/100. Because the magazine lists are just that, someone else's list, which may have zero connection to what we may find important. I see no difference in wanting to go to the Lourve to see the Mona Lisa, or Florence to see the statue of David, and wanting to see Cypress Point or Ballybunion or NGLA, OR the Grand Canyon, or Cappadoccia, or the Nile - as really they are all, or should be all about appreciation for fine things, art, nature, special places.

Whether someone else 'ranks' them as the places to be, only serves to highlight what should be on our radar to build our own bucket list if you want....and hopefully along the way (actually you are guaranteed) to meet some amazing people and perhaps even a Kavanagh, and that is what drives me to see great courses, great places and meet new or old friends.

Ultimately, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder, but there are some things that rise above this, and there are some golf courses, designs and architects that can show us an incredible place and an incredible test of golf, this is perhaps what those others don't show us, and why everyone should look to see what is great in golf, and so all power to those that can, or want to see the best of the best.

Luckily we are all different, and that is why a top 100 golf course list has so many flaws, so for me, belt notching is important as long as it is your own belt, and not a magazine's "belt" trying to sell advertising.

[Matthew Rose]

One thing I've been doing lately is trying to play as many architects as I can.... this is much more attainable for someone like me. Even though I don't have anything in the top 100, I've had a chance to at least play a couple of Dyes and a Doak. And I have RTJ 1 and 2, Rees, Fazio, Nicklaus, Palmer, Norman, Engh, Art Hills, Brauer, Weiskopf, Morrish... and a Ross if you count Wellshire.

My personal list looks a little better when I frame it in those terms. In most cases I'm not getting the crown jewel of those architects' personal discographies, but at least I'm getting the flavor.

[Dan King]

John Kavanaugh writes:
All it takes is patience. I was in my 40's when I played my first top 100 course and need to join it first. There is nothing wrong with collecting golf course plays. This thread, started by someone wo sells the experience, makes it seem like a bad thing.

Isn't there like 100s of top 100 lists?  Is there a top-100 of top-100 lists? When this thread talks about a top-100 list, is it one of the lists that everyone assumes is the one being talked about.

I'd much rather play golf with Big John than collect belt notches.

Cheers,
Dan King

It's like replacing Bo Derek with Roseanne Barr.
 --Johnny Miller (on Poppy Hills replacing Cypress Point as part of the home for the AT&T Pro-Am)

[Joel_Stewart]

What I do rate very highly are golfers that are passionate about the architecture, who have or are working toward playing their own personal top 10/25/50/100. Because the magazine lists are just that, someone else's list, which may have zero connection to what we may find important. I see no difference in wanting to go to the Lourve to see the Mona Lisa, or Florence to see the statue of David, and wanting to see Cypress Point or Ballybunion or NGLA, OR the Grand Canyon, or Cappadoccia, or the Nile - as really they are all, or should be all about appreciation for fine things, art, nature, special places.

I was a belt notcher but stopped.  I've spent and wasted too much money flying to places only to be disappointed.   Now I search for historic courses that maybe are not on the radar but offer something I can learn and experience. 

The lists do have some value, they do identify courses and I follow courses that make significant moves up and down and why this occurs.

[Tom_Doak]

The sad thing about the belt-notchers is that some of them don't have time to go across the street and play the other cool course in town, because they are too fixated on heading off to the next top-100 check box.

I'm such an anti-belt-notcher that I will probably never play the last one or two I'm missing, just so I am not part of the club.

[Bob_Garvelink]

Hey Gang,

I am a belt-notcher and proud of it although I dont just play these courses to brag in the clubhouse or to talk myself up.  For me, golf is an outlet from reality, a time to get away from this hectic world and simply enjoy life.  Besides my family, golf is my passion...some guys spend $300 a week at the casino or on beers and smokes.  I dont judge them and I have do doubt they work very hard each week so more power to them if they get some happiness out of these types of activities.  I just figure if I am going to golf then from time to time I should be able to enjoy golfing some of the finest courses in Michigan.  Yes, I am just a young buck (or kind of young.....31) and have to start somewhere so I try and knock out a few of the top courses in the state each year.  Eventually, I want to be able to play some of the better courses in the country and its not to brag about them.....although I am sure I will from time to time but I feel that life is to short not to enjoy somethings that make one happy.  Golf is a great game and there is nothing like accomplishing a major feat on an amazing course.  The first time I ever shot in the 30's was at Treetops in Gaylord Michigan..  I had been known to choke (probably 5 years worth of chokes) and I just happen to drill a 40 foot "double dipper" putt to shoot a 39 on the Fazio course while my golf buddies were cheering me on with excitment.  This was on a boys weekend and its times like this that keep me exploring new courses.  DANG I LOVE THIS GAME!!!

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

It was interesting going over to relatively--outside of GCA.com--unknown St. George's after playing Sebonack last week.  The difference between them with regard to fun and quality architecture isn't as vast as some "listers" might think.  That's the downside of lists.  Some would have us believe implicitely that a course on the "the list" is more worth your time than one that isn't.

[Tim Martin]

There are more people whose wish is to play with me than courses I need to see. 

Would you consider these people social climbers or thrill seekers?

Tim,

You tell me, I believe you are firmly in the "Gotta Get Me Some Kavanaugh" camp. I have had so many fine and generous people ask me to join them for a game that it would be selfish to play alone somewhere just because of the course. Personally, I don't get it but choose not to fight it. It's good to be a notch.

Kav- I would be flat out lying if I said I didn't want to GMSK. Not many notches are as flat out gracious as you. When did you finally give in to the higher calling?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The reference to playing great courses that are rated as belt notching is the negative.  It should be an aspiration to be able to play many great golf courses.  Since variety is very important, playiing all the courses on the current Golf Magazine world list would provide a great persepective on what that magazine's consenus considers great.  It would be very odd if there were no objections to where courses fall on the list.  However, how can one make a personal ranking without having experienced the courses.  That being said, last fall, a ranker managed to play Engineers, Creek, and Piping Rock on the same day--that would fall into the negative category of belt notching and pretty much make the evaluations useless--how can you really judge a course playing at sprint pace?
Through the Golf Digest lists in the 1970's, an interest in the architecture of golf courses began, and having played many great courses years ago an understanding of how design affected the way I played became an major start to a deep interest in architecture.  Having now played a large chunck of the world greats, I am better able to appreciate hidden gems and attempt to play great courses slightly under the top rankings.  

[Steve_Lovett]

I see nothing wrong with seeking out golf courses you enjoy, especially in the company of friends with a common interest. I think the whole concept of "belt notching" is misguided, especially when generosity and good will is abused for the sake of "access".

[Dan King]

Robert Mercer Deruntz writes:
It should be an aspiration to be able to play many great golf courses.  Since variety is very important, playiing all the courses on the current Golf Magazine world list would provide a great persepective on what that magazine's consenus considers great.

I have played 100 percent of my own top-100 list.  I can't imagine why it would be preferable to play some other top-100 list.

Having now played a large chunck of the world greats, I am better able to appreciate hidden gems and attempt to play great courses slightly under the top rankings.  

I can do that while simultaneously ignoring lists.

Cheers,
Dan King

The emblem on the necktie reserved for the members of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews -- The Vatican of golf -- is of St. Andrew himself bearing the slatier cross on which, once he was captured at Patras, he was to be stretched before he was crucified. Only the Scots would have thought of celebrating a national game with the figure of a tortured saint.
 --Alister Cooke

[Tommy Williamsen]

 For twenty years I have put notches in my driver. I wanted to play both the GD top 100 list and GOLF top 100 world list.  I turned down an all expense paid trip to play the world list because of the time commitment.  I didn't sleep for weeks after that.  It isn't going to happen anymore.  I stay at about 80 on the GD list and about 65 on the world list.  I just don't care anymore.  I have played plenty of courses.

I am going to England in September on a speaking trip and will spend a week afterwards playing golf.  A few years ago I did the same thing.  I played 14 different courses in 7 days.  This time I am spending a week at Saunton.  They are going to give me a half year overseas membership for about 200 pounds.  I am getting a nearby B&B and just playing there.  I love links golf and both courses are just great. 
There is a part of me that says, "Why don't you at least go over and see East Devon. It looks interesting. Or go back to St Enodoc and RND."  But I think I will enjoy getting to know some guys at Saunton, play in a competition, go home feeling that I enjoyed my time.
No more notches.

[Ken Moum]

Since it's virtually impossible that I will ever have many notches on my belt, it's easy for me to be an anti-notcher, but the truth is I have been anti list for a long time.

As a hunter and fisherman, I just couldn't get interested in the concept of chasing after stuff to work on some kind of list.

I have always thought the birdwatchers who were avid "life listers" were a few bricks short of a load.

The whole concept of trying to get one of everything on a list that someone else created feels wrong to me.

Just for the heck of it I looked and figured out that I have played a couple of courses on the current GD 100 greatest in the US, three of GD's 100 greatest public, a couple of GWs 100 Classic, five of GW's 100 modern.

But even if i were interested, I'd wonder, Whose list?  From what year? Including what countries?

It just seems like a silly quest.

K