Classic Chicago/Wisconsin golf

[Nigel Islam]

     Hey all I am a newbie here. My friend has me going on a trip to the American Club in mid-August, and I am looking to add an old classic golf course or two to spruce things up a bit. I have been looking at Lawsonia Links, but I was going to see if anybody else has any suggestions. I am coming in from southwest Indiana through Chicago.

Thanks,
Nigel

[Brian Hilko]

Harrison Hills or ravisloe are great classic public options.

[Tim_Cronin]

Side trip for a course untouched for decades: Chicago Heights West (the old country club 9, a Bendelow with a cross bunker on a par 3, course in so-so shape), not far from Ravisloe.
Ravisloe (Ross redo, Esler sympathetic touchup a few years ago) is highly recommended.

[Phil McDade]

Public or private?

[George Freeman]

If you're going to the American Club, the only place you should be stopping for good "classical" golf is Lawsonia.  That is unless you have connections to various privates in Chicago...

Lawsonia by a landslide...

[Paul OConnor]

You might as well go play Chicago Golf, I heard it's nice.
Also, I wouldn't go out of my way to play Ravisloe.  It's just not that good.  Lot's of GCA love for a crappy little course.

[Brian Hilko]

Paul, could you elaborate further on why ravi is not that good.

[J_ Crisham]

Paul is probably comparing Ravisloe to the club he is a member at -fair assessment given his club's stature and architectural merits.

[Phil McDade]

Paul is probably comparing Ravisloe to the club he is a member at -fair assessment given his club's stature and architectural merits.

Well, then that's a silly little comment to make, isn't it?

Jack:

How would you compare Ravisloe to other classic-era, publicly accessible (meaning, no access required) courses in the Chicago metro area? I know that's probably a small sample size, but genuinely curious.

[J_ Crisham]

Phil,    I am a poor judge of the Chicago area publics as I rarely play them- the public course I played as a child ,Evergreen CC is now a heap of dirt and dust across from Beverly-I knew that course very well and will miss it if for merely sentimental reasons-we would play there after a hard day looping at Bev.I also played alot of golf at Hickory Hills as a kid. Marquette Park was another. My guess is the better classic publics in Chicago would be Cog Hill, Pine Meadows, and Ravisloe. There is just a tremendous drop in quality from the privates in Chicago to the publics in my opinion.

[Phil McDade]

Phil,    I am a poor judge of the Chicago area publics as I rarely play them- the public course I played as a child ,Evergreen CC is now a heap of dirt and dust across from Beverly-I knew that course very well and will miss it if for merely sentimental reasons-we would play there after a hard day looping at Bev.I also played alot of golf at Hickory Hills as a kid. Marquette Park was another. My guess is the better classic publics in Chicago would be Cog Hill, Pine Meadows, and Ravisloe. There is just a tremendous drop in quality from the privates in Chicago to the publics in my opinion.

Jack:

I once did a brief course review on GCA of Bonnie Brook, way up in Waukegen, a muni designed by James Foulis and one of the few classic-era publics I could find in Chicago-land (and Waukegan is on the far reaches of that!). Decent, but not worth a special trip. Other than it being fairly flat and short-ish, I've heard generally good things about Ravisloe, and Esler's bunker work there is said to be quite good.

[Carl Nichols]

Paul is probably comparing Ravisloe to the club he is a member at -fair assessment given his club's stature and architectural merits.

Or maybe he just thinks it's a "crappy little course."  Either way, it would be good to hear his views on why he thinks it's crappy.

[Paul OConnor]

"My guess is the better classic publics in Chicago would be Cog Hill, Pine Meadows, and Ravisloe. " 

Jack, as usual, you are far too kind and gentlemanly to call a shitty course a shitty course. 

To put Rav in the same league with Cog Hll and Pine Meadows is a joke.  Ravisloe is a 6300 yard, poorly maintained, underbudgeted, slow greened, POS.  The conditioning is atrocious.   There might be two holes that coud be described as OK.  To put it into the list of "Chicago's Best Public Courses"  is irresponsible.  I wouldn't drive across the city to play it, let alone come from another state.  Whatever Donald Ross connection claimed by the club has long disappeared under various renovations and revisions.  Unless your maximum tee ball travels 190 yards, this course has zero relevance to the modern game of golf.  The old caddy name for this dump was "Rabbitholes", I think that says it all.  I would avoid this place. 

I'd rather play Glenwoodie.

[Phil McDade]

Because, of course, length and conditioning are always the hallmarks of great golf architecture....

[Will Lozier]

You might as well go play Chicago Golf, I heard it's nice.
Also, I wouldn't go out of my way to play Ravisloe.  It's just not that good.  Lot's of GCA love for a crappy little course.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48192.0.html
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43775.0.html

Nigel,

Whatever you do, don't make your decision based on Paul's judgement.  See the threads above and judge Ravisloe on those pics and comments -looks like really interesting architecture on typical flat Chicago terrain.  I plan on seeing it next time I am there to visit my brother.  Definitely worth a look.  Still, don't pass up Lawsonia.

Cheers

[Paul OConnor]

If you guys want to marvel at the fabulous Esler bunker work, have at it, but there is nothing great about Ravisloe.  It is a below average public course that used to be a below average private course.  

Also, I suspect that most of the great courses in this country are all pretty well conditioned.  Length is relative of course, but for me 6300 from the tips is a little short for a course without much other appeal.   Maybe I'm missing the incredible genius of the Rav, but I don't think so.  

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give it a 1.  

[J_ Crisham]

Another couple of decent classic publics that are mentioned from time to time is Kankakee Elks-short but fun, and far from easy. Also as a kid we used to play Big Run- tough set of long par 5's-conditioning was always marginal.

[Paul OConnor]

Here is a quote from Judge Lavin on one of the other Rav threads.  I think it sums it up pretty well.

"Bottom line, just because you put some minimalist fluorishes and native grass eye candy on the okay bones of a golf course, it doesn't become a masterpiece of some sort.  There is a handful of holes at Ravisloe that really work, particularly at the northwest nook of the property, but it's just a run of the mill track. "

And the conditioning is poor,...and it's really short.

[George Freeman]

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give it a 1.  

Paul - that statement is laughable.

While I certainly don't think Rav is the second coming of Chicago Golf, calling it a 1 out of 10 is pretty ludicrous.  Short?  Yes.  Poor conditioning of late?  Yes.  Devoid of interest, strategy and fun golf shots?  Absolutely not.

PS - for the purpose of this thread, I would not recommend a special trip for a visitor to see Ravisloe; nothing revolutionary to see.  You're better off getting in another 36 at Lawsonia...

[John Mayhugh]

The advantage to Harrision Hills is that it's a pretty minor detour on the way up or back and breaks up the trip a little.  Visiting Lawsonia is probably a couple more hours of driving total.

I think Lawsonia is worth the extra travel, though. It's quite a bit better than Harrison Hills, and one could do a day trip to Attica from southwest IN some other time.

Doing both is also a really nice option. 

[Paul OConnor]

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give it a 1.  

Paul - that statement is laughable.

While I certainly don't think Rav is the second coming of Chicago Golf, calling it a 1 out of 10 is pretty ludicrous.  Short?  Yes.  Poor conditioning of late?  Yes.  Devoid of interest, strategy and fun golf shots?  Absolutely not.

PS - for the purpose of this thread, I would not recommend a special trip for a visitor to see Ravisloe; nothing revolutionary to see.  You're better off getting in another 36 at Lawsonia...

You're right, I judged it a little harshly, on second thought, I'd give it a 2.  What would you give it?

[Sven Nilsen]

Paul:

If you wouldn't mind, how would you rank the following Chicago area public courses (assuming you've played them):

Ravisloe
Harborside (either one)
Big Run
Bolingbrook
Prairie Landing
Cog #4
Cog #2
Ruffled Feathers
Orchard Valley
Highlands of Elgin
Thunderhawk
Pine Meadow
Glen Ellyn
Cantigny
The Glen Club
Shepherd's Crook

Second question, what features or values influence your ranking?

Third question, if Ravisloe was kept in "country club" conditions, would it rank higher?

[George Freeman]

You're right, I judged it a little harshly, on second thought, I'd give it a 2.  What would you give it?

On a pure 1-10 scale (non-Doak), I'd probably give it a 6.

If we're talking about grading on a curve consisting of Chicagoland public courses, it would rank quite a bit better.

[Jud_T]

Lawsonia by a landslide.  As per Ravisloe, perhaps it's not a great course but given the general mediocrity of public, and frankly private, options in the area it clearly stands out.  Sure it's short for the big knockers, but it's hardly a pushover, and the conditioning can be spotty, but it can also be OK too.  For us average hacks who don't get their panties in a bunch over greens running at 12 and the typically overzealous Chicago rough that you could sell dime bags of behind Morgan Park Academy, the only other public tracks that I'll even bother playing anymore other than the Rav are Shepherd's Crook, Highlands of Elgin, Pine Meadow and Spring Valley, which isn't even in Illinois (love to hear Paul rip Spring Valley a new one as well  ).   Cog Hill #4 and $1.50 will buy you a subway token to next U.S. Open qualifier...

[J_ Crisham]

Jud,
      Assuming I read your post correctly you feel that even on the private side Chicago area golf is mediocre? I can think of 3 courses within 5 minutes of Ravisloe, OFCC N&S, and Flossmoor that are all top 200 in the US- thats far from mediocre-I would play these courses every day of the week and not tire of them.Mr. O'Connor logs more rounds at OFCC before June 1 than most players do all season-he knows good golf. As an aside I would rate Ravisloe a Doak 4.