[Bart Bradley]

I am a big fan of Bill Coore and his work.  I admire Darius Oliver and have enjoyed his writing.  I read with great interest Darius' explanation and lauding of the 7th hole at Lost Farm.

But

The truth is that the mound in the middle of the 7th hole at Lost Farm looks out of place to me and I don't buy Darius' claiming it to be a great hole.

What painful truths will you share?

Bart

[Joel_Stewart]

What painful truths will you share?

Jenny MacCarthy seems like a nut.

In terms of golf, Bill Coore has taken some chances and they didn't work.  The 7th green at Friars Head and a few holes at Bandon Trails have been modified.  Perhaps Lost Farm will also be modified in the future. 

[Ed Oden]

Biarritz holes - They just don't work with modern equipment and maintenance.  I haven't seen a single one that plays to its conceptual ideal.

[Ronald Montesano]

Yale's does.  Fox Chapel's does. In fact, watch Fox Chapel at the end of June on the champs tour.

[Sam Morrow]

Biarritz holes - They just don't work with modern equipment and maintenance.  I haven't seen a single one that plays to its conceptual ideal.

Ed,

Why don't you think they work?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Biarritz holes - They just don't work with modern equipment and maintenance.  I haven't seen a single one that plays to its conceptual ideal.
Ed,

Which one's have you played ?

[Bill Brightly]

Yale's does.  Fox Chapel's does. In fact, watch Fox Chapel at the end of June on the champs tour.

I have concluded that they only "work" when the green plays REALLY firm and fast whereby balls flown to the back portion fail to hold. That is the ONLY way you are going to get guys actually trying to land the ball on the front section. (Front sections maintained at fairway height and/or have soft fairways also negate the strategy.)

[JC Jones]

One of the worst 5 courses I've ever played was designed and built by 2 designers who have courses in my Top 5 ever played.

[Keith OHalloran]

JC,
You dislike Sebonack that much?

[JC Jones]

JC,
You dislike Sebonack that much?

I've not played it but I heard that the best thing about Sebonack is the view of the clubhouse next door.

[Bart Bradley]

One of the worst 5 courses I've ever played was designed and built by 2 designers who have courses in my Top 5 ever played.

JC:

This is sort of a half-truth.  If you won't name the course, you are afraid of the truth.

Bart

[hhuffines]

I've got one for you Bart; the Dogwood at CCNC.  I've been enjoying going there since the early 80s with friends and family and used to think of the course as a worthy neighbor to Pinehurst #2.  As the Pinehurst management have found themselves in retro fitting #2,  CCNC now seems sketchy in terms of conditioning and architecture.  Fortunately it's still close by but it's been relegated to a nice place to play 36 in a beer laden cart.  At least the fishing is still great, but the above hurts....

[Mark Bourgeois]

One of the worst 5 courses I've ever played was designed and built by 2 designers who have courses in my Top 5 ever played.

Crystal Downs?

[Mark Bourgeois]

One of the worst 5 courses I've ever played was designed and built by 2 designers who have courses in my Top 5 ever played.

Merion?

[JC Jones]

I didn't know my statement would draw such interest.

Mark,

Merion is top 5 for me and CD is certainly not in my bottom 5.

[Brad Isaacs]

Biarritz holes - They just don't work with modern equipment and maintenance.  I haven't seen a single one that plays to its conceptual ideal.

Could you expand on this somewhat, please. I don't understand exactly what you mean. 

Brad I

PS I love Yale's.

[Tim Martin]

Width is more important than length. Please don`t ask me to elaborate.

[Keith OHalloran]

Tim, why is it that only owners of Irish courses try to convince you of that?

[Tim Martin]

Tim, why is it that only owners of Irish courses try to convince you of that?

KO-A very good question but again I can`t elaborate.

[Bill Brightly]

Biarritz holes - They just don't work with modern equipment and maintenance.  I haven't seen a single one that plays to its conceptual ideal.

Could you expand on this somewhat, please. I don't understand exactly what you mean. 

Brad I

PS I love Yale's.

Ed can answer for himself, but I bet he made that comment  because 99 % of all golfers who CAN fly it to the back, try to fly it to the back. No one seems to opt for the run up shot unless they have to. (But with the lack of rain this spring,  my course FORCED us to  land it short. especially when we played the back tees at 250.) George Bahto says the hole needs to be between 250-275 given today's equipment.

I would love to know how Tim plays Yale's when the pin is back.

[Donnie Beck]

Yale's does.  Fox Chapel's does. In fact, watch Fox Chapel at the end of June on the champs tour.

I have concluded that they only "work" when the green plays REALLY firm and fast whereby balls flown to the back portion fail to hold. That is the ONLY way you are going to get guys actually trying to land the ball on the front section. (Front sections maintained at fairway height and/or have soft fairways also negate the strategy.)

Bill,

I understand your point but I don't think any of CBM/Raynor/Bank's Biarritz holes were ever designed to be pinned or maintained as Green before the swale. You have to remember that all of these holes were built before irrigation was wide spread. Without irrigation  the ball will run through the swale just fine.

[JC Jones]

One of the worst 5 courses I've ever played was designed and built by 2 designers who have courses in my Top 5 ever played.

JC:

This is sort of a half-truth.  If you won't name the course, you are afraid of the truth.

Bart

You can't handle the truth.

[Bill Brightly]

Yale's does.  Fox Chapel's does. In fact, watch Fox Chapel at the end of June on the champs tour.

I have concluded that they only "work" when the green plays REALLY firm and fast whereby balls flown to the back portion fail to hold. That is the ONLY way you are going to get guys actually trying to land the ball on the front section. (Front sections maintained at fairway height and/or have soft fairways also negate the strategy.)

Bill,

I understand your point but I don't think any of CBM/Raynor/Bank's Biarritz holes were ever designed to be pinned or maintained as Green before the swale. You have to remember that all of these holes were built before irrigation was wide spread. Without irrigation  the ball will run through the swale just fine.

Donnie,

I agree 100%. The holes also weren't designed with the thought that some day golfers would be hitting lofted clubs 210-230 yards in the air!  Fishers Island can get away without irrigation, not many parkland courses would be around today without it...  How do most guys play FI's Biarritz? Run up or fly to the pin?

So given today's equipment and irrigation, parkland Biarritz holes need to be lengthened and the front section mowed short IF your goal is to see the ground game utilized. Otherwise, it's just another long par 3, except that there are short, bunker relics from a time gone by that only effect high handicappers.

[Donnie Beck]

Bill,

Most players will hit 3 wood and let it run but the pros and longer players will fire right at the back section with 6 iron-hybrid. Ours plays 210-235 depending on tee.

[JR Potts]

All of the unadulterated classic courses are way too easy for the elite golfer.

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