News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2012, 01:14:45 AM »
Perry.... stand corrected. I should have known that because he was (is?) based here.

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Pete Balzer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 08:18:08 AM »
Phelps courses- The nest I've palyed is Racoon Creek. Has anyone played Old Baldy?

M.R.- When playing Breckenridge, make sure you play the original 18, the new nine doesn't cut it. You should try and play Keystone Ranch, for your second round in the mountains.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2012, 09:08:28 AM »
Riverdale played very soft last week.  Drives were basically plugging, and we had mud on the balls quite often.  It's like that quite regularly from what I'm told.  A couple of wild greens, with a lot of opportunities for fun with a different maintenance philosophy.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2012, 09:27:35 AM »
Evergreen is a really fun little course. VERY short, very quirky. I've always enjoyed playing it, although I don't necessarily see it being a hit with this crowd.

Canterberry is now named Black Bear. They seem to do okay. A Jeff Brauer course that if I remember correctly ended up having the hole order changed around due to the clubhouse location being changed. Lots of arroyos to cross, you can lose some balls there if you're not careful. Very much up and down a hillside, so not a course to walk unless you're really motivated.

I always think of Riverdale Dunes as one of my favorite local courses but it has at times suffered for being overwatered. Just keepin' the grass alive, I guess. I'll agree that it's more fun to play in the winter, but it's not just the firmer fairway conditions, it's that the tall grass around the fairways dies down, and you can find a ball in there and actually hit it.

There are a lot of Phelps designs around Denver, but I'll say that none of them truly stand out to me. Raccoon Creek may be one of the better ones, but I don't care much for West Woods. That has 18 of dad's (Richard Phelps) and nine by his son Rick. I'll say this, it likely serves the local community well, and while it isn't too exciting to me from an architectural standpoint, it's fairly walkable and allows for lots of golf course homesites. Ok, that's just a little snarky.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2012, 10:00:16 AM »
En route to Fossil Trace....

Kirk, three intriguing options; Evergreen looks a bit of a trek, but definitely an interesting course to me.  Somewhat related, the options for 9-hole courses were underwhelming.  The 18-hole mentality must have taken root before the golf boom in Denver.

Raccoon Creek (thanks Pete, also) moves up the list.  Is it just me, but doesn't one have to experience the gamut of courses to appreciate the breadth of design?

I hadn't even looked at Black Bear assuming it was a Nicklaus course, not that there is anything wrong with that.  Our frind Jeff Brauer is on my list of must-see's.  Is Black Bear accessible?

Off to board....
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2012, 12:22:32 PM »
I played a ton of Phelps courses growing up in Denver, for me the best by far is Saddle Rock in Aurora. Racoon Creek is also an OK track, not as good as Saddle Rock.

Some others that are probably more good than bad:

Perry Park: Very pretty private course in the Larkspur area, plays in and around red rock formations
Meadows: In a valley so the homes around don't feel very in play. Some good holes.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2012, 12:47:25 AM »
First, many thanks to one of our GCA brethren here in Denver who forsook his standing round at CommonGround to join me at Fossil Trace.  Along with Roger from the grounds crew, we enjoyed good company and some very enjoyable and at times well played golf.

Jim Engh has accomplished something very distinctive with Fossil Trace, in creating what is the best expression of a Disney ride in golf course form I've ever seen.  When you stop sniggering, let me explain that first, I mean that as a compliment.  The Imagineers at Disney, and I think Mr. Engh has gone far to earn that title, too, have perfected an experience that is thrilling, yet safe, that builds throughout to a dramatic conclusion, and that coaxes and nudges the participant to have a good time, despite the participants efforts otherwise.

The safe part: Mr. Engh does not want you to contend with a bad approach.  Unless you visit Mr. Shank on your ball, he wants your ball to come back to the fairway.  He has placed buddy bumpers throughout the course, especially the early, just getting to know you section.  Fade it left, pull it right, mis-aim?  Not to worry! There's a mounded embankment to correct that ball-flight flaw, and keep you on the course.

And this is just like the line to the ride at Disney (as much a part of the ride as the ride itself, you know).  The first hole introduces the theme: the chimney in the fairway at the bottom of the blind drive, and the long green in a 1/2 bowl.  Shots gather.  Scores stay low.  4 presents the first challenge, the first thrill, with the hazard pinching in, but not too much, and not a crossing hazard.  The threes to this point are short.  Short short.

6 presents another challenge; a centerline bunker and a 4-tier green on the bias.  8 presents another challenge; a gash of a trench bunker on the line of charm.  The Juvie left of 9 threatens to capture your drive, but again, gathering mounds, keep the play in line.

The crescendo has been utilizing throughout the front, and the back brings on the ride.  10 presents the first real water test with a semi-drivable 90 degree dogleg around water.  11 transitions into the mine with a long, multi tier green, leading to 12, and the heart of the course.  Leading to 11 you see the first of three abandoned steams hovels perched along the ridges in this section.  Ot only do they provide the visual reinforcement to the course's POV, but they announce that now, the game is on.  This is the thrill.

12 is a mid length 5 with a slight dogleg left.  The vertical guardian theme from 1 is back, with a series of sentinel stone stolons guarding the approach into 12 green.  This is different.  The way these stone pillars aligned, they mask the view into the green, and frankly, are really cool.  Their impact however need not be anything.  Once you realize that 1 you don't want your ball among them and 2 you just need to play over them, they aren't impactful.  But, like all good hazards, you feel like you've accomplished something playing over them.  That is good.

13-15 finish the mine section.  The buddy bumpers remain, but these holes provide some tooth, too.  16 walks you out of the ride, but just when you think you are safe, 17 and 18 bring it again with a 4 and a 5 playing around a pond in a basin.  Much like the end of the log flume, you can end up wet.  But it's just the end of the ride.

I give a thumbs up to Fossil Trace.  Apparently, many others do, too.  The props are there, but they are on the course.  And while the ride is sanitized, it is still a fun ride. 

Is it the best course ever?  Even bringing it into the conversation is silly.  But much like Total Recall, one of the best Arnold Schwarzenneger action movies, Fossil Trace deserves its kudos for being a fine Disney ride golf course, one that will bring joy to many Golfers for quite some time.




The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2012, 09:50:15 AM »
David,

I think Jim Engh would enjoy reading your synopsis.

Derek
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Matt Bosela

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2012, 10:43:31 AM »
Thanks for that great writeup David on Fossil Trace.  Now I'm thinking I need to consider playing there when I venture down to Denver in a couple weeks...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2012, 11:53:54 AM »
David,

Me and my friends really enjoyed Fossil Trace.  It is the first and only course I have played that gave me a restaurant style beeper letting us know when to report to the tee.  An interesting difference from your experience was that we teed off the 10th.  I enjoyed getting to the glory holes early and always wondered how different the course would be otherwise.  It's funny that Engh has template holes as evidenced on our trip by playing Awarii Dunes on the same trip.

I will say one thing about human nature that makes me very happy.  The fact that a guy plays an Engh course and then hires him to build another says volumes about the vision of dreamers.  I look forward to playing many more during my travels.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2012, 12:04:22 PM »
David,

Thoughtful write up.  I would agree, that even if Enghs courses doesn't fit ones eye or tastes....no doubt his courses are very fun to play with lots of interesting and unique shots that you won't see elsewhere.

It is interesting that you think it makes for "easy" golf though.  Sure the bowled greens and fairways can give one a good kick, but heaven forbid if you get caught up in the rough on one of those slopes....it makes for a very difficult recovery.  Additionally, I found Black Rock and Sanctuary to be fairly difficult golf courses in comparison to most other courses I've played, so I don't think Engh golf = easy golf.  For comparison, I've played 5 Doak courses and 4 Engh courses and I've found the Engh courses in aggregate to be much tougher and demanding than the Doak courses.


David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2012, 10:10:23 PM »
Kalen,

I've played 1 Doak course (post #1) and one Engh course, and the difference I felt is that  Doak wanted me to think my way around while Engh wanted me to enjoy the ride.  Both courses provided support for higher handicappers.  Engh did it by making the course smaller, Doak by making it bigger.  In fact, in keeping with the Disney metaphor, Fossil Trace had an intimate, almost 3/4 scale feeling to it, like Disney.  CommonGround, on the other hand presented a normal scale, but with bonus short grass where others might not have placed any.

Many years ago my brother gave me a round of golf together as a birthday present.  My choice of course, of course.  Fossil Trace would be the kind of course I'd consider for a round like that. (I chose the Saratoga Spa Executive Course.)

Thanks for the positive feedback those who commented. 

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2012, 01:40:23 AM »
David,

Me and my friends really enjoyed Fossil Trace.  It is the first and only course I have played that gave me a restaurant style beeper letting us know when to report to the tee.  An interesting difference from your experience was that we teed off the 10th.  I enjoyed getting to the glory holes early and always wondered how different the course would be otherwise. 

I think they started me on #10 4 out of the 5 times I played it.

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2012, 09:50:50 AM »
David,

Very well said! You captured my thoughts on Fossil Trace perfectly. I loved your analogy to Disneyland, I think it is spot on. It is the kind of course that leaves you with a smile on your face. Very well said indeed.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver Redux
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2012, 03:47:16 PM »
Steven, thank you.  And if I didn't say it before, while i didn't finish the round on 1 ball, I did finish it on 2 :-)
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright