[Chris Fagan]

Good morning all!  I was referred to this site from one of the pure golf kiwi's, and I just wanted to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the discourse and have already learned a lot.  My question is this, how did everyone get their start in studying GCA?  I work for the government in DC (please don’t hold that against me), and have two kids under the age of 2, which lends itself to around 3 rounds a year at the local muni.  Field study at this point isn’t really an option!  Are there resources like this site, or perhaps a "bible" of GCA that would help? 

Really just wanted to introduce myself and find out if there are any other methods to learn the ins and outs of a growing passion.

Thanks!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Get over to Scotland and look first at all the old out of the way courses hardly changed in over 150-130 years. That will give you the solid foundations to build upon. Start anywhere else and you miss the starting point leaving a gap in your knowledge.

Melvyn

[Scott Warren]

Lives in DC, plays three times a year... suggest he goes to Scotland. Makes perfect sense, Melvyn.

Chris,
Back on planet Earth, I'd suggest reading Grounds for Golf by Geoff Shackelford. Great introduction to the topic.

Welcome to the site!

[Phil McDade]

Finally -- someone on GCA who I can relate to: lives in a government town, doesn't play much golf!

Chris:

Try this thread, full of some very good suggestions on golf architecture books:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47697.0.html

Living in D.C., you can probably get all of them through a library or inter-library loan service.

Good starters: The World Atlas of Golf; The Confidential Guide (by Tom Doak, who posts here frequently; can be hard to find, but I read it through an inter-library loan); the Evangelist of Golf if you really want the full GCA indoctrination.

[Michael Goldstein]

Chris, welcome.

Chris is a genuinely good guy eager to learn more about the 'dark side' of golf.  I'm looking forward to joining you in Scotland mate when you find the time!!

[Chris Fagan]

Chris, welcome.

Chris is a genuinely good guy eager to learn more about the 'dark side' of golf.  I'm looking forward to joining you in Scotland mate when you find the time!!

Thank you sir for the referral!  This has really been a great way to see things from differing perspectives for sure.  First drink after our first round together is on me.

[Chris Fagan]

Thank you for the welcomes and recommendations!  As much as I would like to get out there and really see the course from a players perspective, most of the education will need to be in a classroom.

Here is question I have wrestled with, can you be a terrbile golfer and still have a full appreciation for a courses design?

[Phil McDade]

Thank you for the welcomes and recommendations!  As much as I would like to get out there and really see the course from a players perspective, most of the education will need to be in a classroom.

Here is question I have wrestled with, can you be a terrbile golfer and still have a full appreciation for a courses design?

Yes, and don't let any of the golf snobs here suggest otherwise. My view is that being a lousy golfer -- and I am one -- allows you more opportunities to see and experience the architecture.

Seriously -- Seth Raynor, who many here drool over, was not a golfer. Doak himself has described his game as good but not great.

[Scott Warren]

Phil,

Tom Doak is a good enough golfer to have shot close to even par (perhaps even under par?) at St Enodoc -- which is no mean feat.

[Adam Clayman]

Welcome. I recco "Missing Links" by Rick Reilly. In the end, it's all opinion, and, the more important factor is the humanistic one.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil,

Tom Doak is a good enough golfer to have shot close to even par (perhaps even under par?) at St Enodoc -- which is no mean feat.

Thanks for the defense, Scott.

I was about a six handicap when I was younger; I'm more like a 10 or 12 now.  Good enough to appreciate how much better Tour pros really are, and good enough to understand what the average golfer can and can't do.

Of the 20-30 good architects I know reasonably well, the worst golfer among them is about a 25 handicap, but he spent a lot of time around a famous Tour pro so he understands the differences.  I think you have to understand that range to really understand golf course design, but you can certainly appreciate good golf courses on your own level no matter what your handicap.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Chris,

There are many different learning styles, so you will learn something from everything, but not everything from every method.  But, its a lifelong process (even for professional architects) so the only advice I can give is just get started.  When younger, my first two tools were articles in Golf and Golf Digest, and later books like the World Atlas of Golf and Architects of Golf that got me a breif overview.  Keep adding the books to your collection, as you will learn something from all of them.  The internet is full of even more good info, but also some trash (hey, just like this website!)

Have fun and keep going.

[Chris Fagan]

I really appreciate and am encouraged by the responses.  With so much real life and professional knowledge floating around this discussion group it was intimidating to post.  Looks like a trip to the librairy is in order.  Does anyone know of any public courses in the DC area that would be interesting studies?

[Jud_T]

Chris,

The silver lining is that once the kids get a bit older you can take them out on the course and you get twice as much golf without upsetting your better half.  The Confidential Guide is a great place to start if you can get your hands on a copy.  At least it's a bit cheaper now than it was before the bubble burst.  Aside from ignorant access whores like myself, this site is a phenomenal resource.  Welcome aboard.


Tom,

I recall beating you on the front 9 back in the day, better start posting those scores again or you could be out a lot of Renminbi.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Has Beechtree been redeveloped yet?
If not you could see what happens to a good golf course when sold for development.
Did you ever play Beechtree?
Congratulations on your 2 children under 2.

Read the courses by country and some of the interviews here.
There are tons of items you won't find in any books, and especially not a magazine.

Cheers

[Chris Fagan]

Has Beechtree been redeveloped yet?
If not you could see what happens to a good golf course when sold for development.
Did you ever play Beechtree?
Congratulations on your 2 children under 2.

Read the courses by country and some of the interviews here.
There are tons of items you won't find in any books, and especially not a magazine.

Cheers

Never made it to Beechtree.  Thank you very much, I am sure someday I will understand why having them so close together was a good idea!

I have read a lot of the course reviews here but havent cracked the interview section yet, thanks for the tip!

[J Sadowsky]

Good morning all!  I was referred to this site from one of the pure golf kiwi's, and I just wanted to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the discourse and have already learned a lot.  My question is this, how did everyone get their start in studying GCA?  I work for the government in DC (please don’t hold that against me), and have two kids under the age of 2, which lends itself to around 3 rounds a year at the local muni.  Field study at this point isn’t really an option!  Are there resources like this site, or perhaps a "bible" of GCA that would help? 

Really just wanted to introduce myself and find out if there are any other methods to learn the ins and outs of a growing passion.

Thanks!

Welcome to the community of DCites who love, but never play, golf.  Membership forms are over there by the Au Bon Pain bagels and coffee.

[Chris Fagan]

[/quote]

Welcome to the community of DCites who love, but never play, golf.  Membership forms are over there by the Au Bon Pain bagels and coffee.

[/quote]

Rather than spend 4 hours on the course, we prefer to spend 4 hours getting to and from work.

[Eric Smith]

Welcome to GCA, Chris.

As Phil noted earlier, try to check out George Bahto's excellent book, THE EVANGELIST OF GOLF. [Speaking from experience] I'll say that apart from actually playing a storied course like National Golf Links, pouring through this book is a terrific primer towards your journey into the subject.

[Greg Clark]

I enjoyed reading Confidential Guide, but I sure wouldn't advise someone to start there.  It's expensive for one, and secondly there are better texts to serve as an introduction.  My pick would still be a Doak offering - Anatomy of a Golf Course.  The already mentioned Grounds For Golf is also a good one.

[Phil McDade]

I really appreciate and am encouraged by the responses.  With so much real life and professional knowledge floating around this discussion group it was intimidating to post.  Looks like a trip to the librairy is in order.  Does anyone know of any public courses in the DC area that would be interesting studies?

Chris:

I'd also highly recommend just spending a lot of time on GCA away from the Discussion Board, and reading up on all the excellent stuff in "Courses by Country," Feature Interview," and "In my Opinion" links -- that's how I first really got into golf architecture and appreciating it. There are hours and hours of reading on this site alone that, really, remains the definitive website for golf architecture. The Discussion Board is sort of a debating society among true geeks, but the other parts of GCA are encyclopedic for the breadth and depth of information about the subject.

[Chris Fagan]

Welcome to GCA, Chris.

As Phil noted earlier, try to check out George Bahto's excellent book, THE EVANGELIST OF GOLF. [Speaking from experience] I'll say that apart from actually playing a storied course like National Golf Links, pouring through this book is a terrific primer towards your journey into the subject.

Thank you sir!  I am writing all of the recommendations down.

[Chris Fagan]

I really appreciate and am encouraged by the responses.  With so much real life and professional knowledge floating around this discussion group it was intimidating to post.  Looks like a trip to the librairy is in order.  Does anyone know of any public courses in the DC area that would be interesting studies?

Chris:

I'd also highly recommend just spending a lot of time on GCA away from the Discussion Board, and reading up on all the excellent stuff in "Courses by Country," Feature Interview," and "In my Opinion" links -- that's how I first really got into golf architecture and appreciating it. There are hours and hours of reading on this site alone that, really, remains the definitive website for golf architecture. The Discussion Board is sort of a debating society among true geeks, but the other parts of GCA are encyclopedic for the breadth and depth of information about the subject.

Thanks for the tip!  Eventually I plan on getting out there and seeing the greats for myself, but until then I plan on reading as much as I can, and I really appreciate all of the guidance.

[Will Lozier]

Chris,

I lived in DC for a few years...what courses do you play?  I think Rock Creek is a great little study in some very sporty natural holes - this from a one-time snob of courses not of "championship quality"!

I also loved to play Langston for its wonderful atmosphere (laid back), unique history (a number of great African-American players spent a good deal of time there and so, it is on the National Historic Registry) and a few really interesting holes even in its great simplicity.  Also, it has some terrible holes!

I had my first, Lily, a year ago and we are thinking about our second soon!  Welcome!

Cheers

[Chris Fagan]

Chris,

I lived in DC for a few years...what courses do you play?  I think Rock Creek is a great little study in some very sporty natural holes - this from a one-time snob of courses not of "championship quality"!

I also loved to play Langston for its wonderful atmosphere (laid back), unique history (a number of great African-American players spent a good deal of time there and so, it is on the National Historic Registry) and a few really interesting holes even in its great simplicity.  Also, it has some terrible holes!

I had my first, Lily, a year ago and we are thinking about our second soon!  Welcome!

Cheers

Hi Will!  I usually play Prince William County Golf Course, which is as exciting as it sounds, but it is 18 and I am always happy when I am out there!  It is on the other side of Lake Manassas, not too far from RTJGC, but obviously no where near that caliber!  Thanks again for the warm welcome and congrats on your Lily.

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