[George Pazin]

(My apologies if I am remembering things incorrectly, but wasn't there a time when the play of a hole was described as a sort of tortoise vs. hare thing?)

From Mike Hendren's thread on PV #5:

Michael:

That is a very interesting question because that particular hole probably is the ultimate hole out there as a representation of this so-called theme of Pine Valley known as "Looks harder than it plays."

In my opinion, after playing that hole hundreds of times over there years, I just don't think it is as hard as it looks provided you play it in a particular way. Of the hundreds of times I've played that hole (most all of them in some kind of competition) I think I only selected a club I thought could get me all the way to the green about twice. The rest of the time I just took out a 2 iron and put it up in the fairway in front of the green and just putted from there or chipped and putted from there. Doing it that way my pecentage of 3s and 4s was about 50/50 which to me was a whole lot better than trying to go deep and missing it on either side of that green from which anyone could definitely make what is called a "Pine Valley Other."

(The highly esteemed) Tom describes a style of play that strikes me as almost dead nowadays. Among the top pros and ams, I just can't imagine anyone not going for the green on this hole (or any hole on a par 3). And with the proliferation of hybrids and easier to hit metal woods, I can't imagine many "regular" golfers doing it either. (That, combined with the "I didn't come here to lay up" philosophy.)

Do you - or anyone you know - play ultra conservatively like this?

If this style has in fact died, what is the impact on golf course architecture?

I actually do play somewhat like the way Tom describes. I know full well that certain shots are beyond my ability, other than the occasional fluke shot, so I often lay up to the fairway just short of a green. That's likely on the few playing characteristics Tom & I share...

[Ken Moum]

(My apologies if I am remembering things incorrectly, but wasn't there a time when the play of a hole was described as a sort of tortoise vs. hare thing?)

It's been pretty rare among any of the golfers I have watched or played with for the 50-odd years I have been involved with the game.

Pros would lay up to a "good" yardage when they couldn't reach a green, but these days that only happens on short par fours. In 1991, I was at the U.S. Open at Hazeltine, and the 15th (?) was ~600 yards, so guys laid up there.  I saw Fuzzy hit three iron off the tee, folllowed by another one, and then an eight iron.

Norman famously hit it in two in practice round, but he hit both shots with driver--teed up.

The idea of laying up on a par three is so rare that Bill Casper's trick of doing four straight days in the U.S. Open, and making par all four times, is still talked about today.

FWIW, I have talked about doing it on our 208-yard par three, but only one person has ever actually done it on purpose AFAIK.  Lots of people lay up there, but it's because they have inflated ideas of how far they hit their fairway woods.  (None of them can hit a driver 200 yards, so using a three wood is just a dumb idea.)

K

[Stephen Davis]

George,

I know that the longer I play, the more often I play the way you described. On a completely unrelated note, my handicap has gone down over the last few years My dad always told me the secret to golf is to miss where it won't hurt you.

[Dan Kelly]

I know a guy who plays this way -- but only because he's a confirmed "eccentric" who refuses to carry anything longer than about a 5-iron.

I've played with him only once. On a par-3 requiring a carry of 160 yards, or thereabouts [Minnesota GCAers: Indian Hills No. 6], he was certain he couldn't carry the water going at the green. The play down to the left of the green was a shorter carry, but iffy -- a small, narrow landing area, with OB pretty near the left side of the water hazard.

So: He aimed about 45 degrees to the right, hoping to clear the water hazard where it had a shorter carry -- and where, on the other side, was a grove of pine trees.

You know what happened. He hit it into the water on the shorter line.

-------------- To answer your question more seriously: I can well imagine someone playing a hole such as the one to which TEP refers, in the way TEP describes, in a Match Play setting ... particularly if the opponent has already put himself into Other territory.

I can imagine advising my daughter to play a really long par-3 that way. But I don't think she'd listen to me, till after some painful experience.

I can imagine playing a hole like that myself -- but only in competition.

[Stephen Davis]

On my last trip to Chamber's Bay, I played the 18th 3 wood, 9 iron, 7 iron. That was the first time I can say that about a hole, but it proved to be the correct strategy for me that day.

[Phil McDade]

George:

This discussion came up this spring with Mickelson's ill-fated triple bogey on the final round of the Masters; see reply #24.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51745.0.html

[Mark McKeever]

George,  Great topic. 

I have a similar style of play at my home course.

The 17th at Schuylkill is a reachable par 5 where you need to thread a perfect drive through a narrow fairway flanked on both sides by large trees.  You must hit a perfect shot up the left side for any chance of hitting the green in two.  Otherwise, you end up in trees with low branches and usually have a pitchout near 90 degrees or worse.  For me, If I am trying to post a score, the last think I want is a double on my card late in the round, so I play the hole differently almost all the time. 

If you lay back off the tee (about 230ish) front of where the trees narrow down, it is a wider fairway.  I have adopted a similar principle where I almost always hit a 3 iron off the tee and lay back in front of the chute of trees.  That way I have room for error.  Then I can proceed to hit through the narrrow spot on the fly and end up in the landing zone for a reasonable third shot and a chance at birdie.  Worst case I make a 6 if I make a mistake from there, but I feel with how unlucky I see people get in those trees (as well as myself on occasion), I am avoiding a 7 by keeping the driver in the bag on the tee box.


Mark

[George Pazin]

I wonder how much the "utilization" of architectural options is based on tourney play - what's on the line, in other words. It's easy to ignore - and thus under- or over-rate - options in a drive-by rating.

[JMEvensky]

I wonder how much the "utilization" of architectural options is based on tourney play - what's on the line, in other words. It's easy to ignore - and thus under- or over-rate - options in a drive-by rating.

Agreed.

A ratings list based on competitive play would be worth reading.

[Jonathan Stewart]

If I ever get the opportunity to play PV, on the 5th tee I will say, "I'll lay up next time I play Pine Valley." Then procede to take dead aim and hope for the best.

[Pete Lavallee]

George,

I think that if you had the opportunity to play with successful tournament golfers you would find that most have this ultraconservative philosophy ingrained. They take no risks and play a totally different game than casual golfers who will go for almost any impossible shot, seeking a thrill. Those shots lead to double bogies which don't lead to success in Tournament golf. Eliminating mistakes is huge if you want to make a living at this game.

[Matthew Petersen]

I do it on the third hole at Wigwam (Gold). On the card it's a 272-yard par 3. I've never actually seen the tees put back there, but the tips are still usually 240. Even the blues are 219, per the card.

The green is very small and narrow, moving away from the player from front right to back left. It's pretty steep slope from back-to-front. There's a very deep bunker short left and another long right with steeps fallaways to the back side.

If it's playing 240, I have to really hit a 3-wood well to even get it there. I hit that club well but the recovery options around the green if you miss are so sever that it's just not worth it.

There is a large finger of fairway running up to the front right of the green, and that's the play. I don't even know that 3 or 4-iron is the best idea, though if I felt confident in one of those clubs that would be fine. My last few times around that hole I've hit a punch-type 5-iron which I can control and will run. Unlikely to get all the way to the front edge, but usually still leaving just an uphill chip. That's a much more reasonable second shot than from anywhere else if you go for it and fail.

[Will Peterson]

I laid up on a par three in the final round of a tournament earlier this year.  The hole was playing 230 with the pin tucked on the back right three paces over a bunker with only 10 paces behind.  The greens were rather firm and fast.  There was no way I was going to be able to stop the ball on that section of the green.  I hit hybrid 15 yards short of the green in the fairway which left me about a 30 yard pitch up the length of the green.  Hit it to three feet and knocked in the par putt.  The other two in the group went for it and made a 4 and a 6.  While sitting around the scoreboard after the round, I heard many stories of trouble from that hole, but not one other of a person laying up.

[David_Elvins]

George,

I think that if you had the opportunity to play with successful tournament golfers you would find that most have this ultraconservative philosophy ingrained. They take no risks and play a totally different game than casual golfers who will go for almost any impossible shot, seeking a thrill. Those shots lead to double bogies which don't lead to success in Tournament golf. Eliminating mistakes is huge if you want to make a living at this game.

I agree with this, Pete.  Tournament golf and stroke play golf are a much different game, and rewards conservative play.

[Brent Hutto]

And eliminating stroke play is a must if you want to have any fun at this game. It's just as big a mistake IMO for a handicap golfer to run around an interesting and challenging course with a scorecard in his hand as it is for a tournament golfer to try playing shots that are likely to lead to double and triple bogeys. We all need to know what we're out there for.

[David_Elvins]

And eliminating stroke play is a must if you want to have any fun at this game. It's just as big a mistake IMO for a handicap golfer to run around an interesting and challenging course with a scorecard in his hand as it is for a tournament golfer to try playing shots that are likely to lead to double and triple bogeys. We all need to know what we're out there for.

Even matchplay encourages conservative play a lot of the time.  It was interesting to see at the Presidents Cup how much less conservative play became in the fourball matches.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

There are number of tour pros whose play would be described as Tortoise style if that adjective were in style on TV now.

[Phil McDade]

And eliminating stroke play is a must if you want to have any fun at this game. It's just as big a mistake IMO for a handicap golfer to run around an interesting and challenging course with a scorecard in his hand as it is for a tournament golfer to try playing shots that are likely to lead to double and triple bogeys. We all need to know what we're out there for.

Even matchplay encourages conservative play a lot of the time.  It was interesting to see at the Presidents Cup how much less conservative play became in the fourball matches.

David:

Fourballs are almost always aggressive, at least in Ryder and President's Cup competition. Stick four of the world's best players on any given hole, and someone's likely to birdie it. Pars rarely win a hole in top-tier fourball matches. Foursomes are the opposite, of course -- pars often win a hole, thus the cautious play, given the penalty for a way off-line shot.

[Doug Siebert]

There are no shortage of holes where many people who can reach the green off the tee or in two don't go for it because there's way too much trouble around the green.  Pretty much any short par 4 or par 5 with an island green, for instance (you don't see this with pros because the island greens aren't small enough to make them worry - layups are bad for TV, so Pete Dye doesn't make small island greens)

If you want to design a hole to encourage this, have a firm and fast but shallow green that runs away from you, with water or OB in back but zero trouble in front.  Smart players will end up short of that green pretty much every time.

[George Pazin]

There are number of tour pros whose play would be described as Tortoise style if that adjective were in style on TV now.

 

If you want to design a hole to encourage this, have a firm and fast but shallow green that runs away from you, with water or OB in back but zero trouble in front.  Smart players will end up short of that green pretty much every time.

Doug, the flip side of this is the thinking that Hogan was said to have exhibited on the 10th at Oakmont (definitely firm and fast running away from you, but not particularly shallow). He was said to be found practicing chipping to hole locations from behind the green, and said he planned to hit his approach down there, as it was better to be there in two than three!

-----

Excellent points by everyone this thread, except Phil for having the temerity to suggest he beat me to the punch...and even provide evidence to boot.

[Phil McDade]

There are number of tour pros whose play would be described as Tortoise style if that adjective were in style on TV now.

 

If you want to design a hole to encourage this, have a firm and fast but shallow green that runs away from you, with water or OB in back but zero trouble in front.  Smart players will end up short of that green pretty much every time.

Doug, the flip side of this is the thinking that Hogan was said to have exhibited on the 10th at Oakmont (definitely firm and fast running away from you, but not particularly shallow). He was said to be found practicing chipping to hole locations from behind the green, and said he planned to hit his approach down there, as it was better to be there in two than three!

-----

Excellent points by everyone this thread, except Phil for having the temerity to suggest he beat me to the punch...and even provide evidence to boot.

George:

Sorry! But it's a good subject.

Re: Hogan and Oakmont's 10th -- Tiger has been known to do the same thing at TOC's 12th, which he views as a tougher approach from in front of the green (which has a narrow, shelf-like area when most pins are put for the Open) than in back. With a helping wind, Tiger often plans the 12th with a driver, hits over the green, and chips back to the pin.

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