Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...

[archie_struthers]

  ???Y


Yo Pat, witnesses lol , for Mr Shelley ?...... Note the grass short of the road is mowed and quite playable . Warner hit it about 150 and then 80 yards and figured he would make four .   He did most of the time.

As I said earlier , the play is to aim it right , hook it hard and hope for the best. 

[TEPaul]

Pat and Archie:

I'd say from the tips carrying it to the fairway probably "plays like" 190. It's a bit more uphill than most might think. I could get a 2 iron to a little short of the green where I could chip or putt.

The two times I played Sigel in the Crump I'd lay up with the 2 iron and he'd take a 2 iron and put it well into the green.  

But the real shot of the future was that 4 iron that Davis Love hit in the Walker Cup from the tips right over the back of the green. About ten people from the USGA were following him because they'd heard about his ultra length and wanted to check it out.

There eyes were pretty wide when he did that but they got wider when he hit his 1 iron from the tip-Sigel tee on #6 so far over the right corner it was frightening!

By the way, Pat, Love's 1 iron was a PING beryllium and he was using a Titleist 90 compression. I remember you had a set of PING Berylliums. Great clubs but those PING berylliums did not go as far as the PING Steel ones did.

[Patrick_Mucci]

???Y


Yo Pat, witnesses lol , for Mr Shelley ?...... Note the grass short of the road is mowed and quite playable . Warner hit it about 150 and then 80 yards and figured he would make four .   He did most of the time.

Archie,

But as you know, that location is well below the green, and it's more than likely that the green was not visible from that location, making a bogey even more difficult

As I said earlier , the play is to aim it right , hook it hard and hope for the best.  

"HOPE"......... Yikes, that's a he'll of a strategy

TE,

The advantage of length was somewhat mitigated at holes like # 4, 7 and 17.

There was a time when almost everyone carried that Ping Eye Two 1-iron.

In terms of distance, obviously the modern arc plays a major role.

When did it become SOP to disconnect the right elbow from the body ?
Nicklaus and Miller Barber did it, but their swings were criticized for the "flying" right elbow.

When did the standard swing discard the "flying elbow" as a negative ?

[archie_struthers]

 

I can assure you that he played it that way quite successfully. The 80 yard shot is to a large green both in length and width.  Next time U visit check it out in person!

The reason you want to draw it to the green is two fold. If you miss it left, you have to be quite unlucky to make more than bogey . . If you hit it solid and fly it just short or on the green it tends to kick left to right , mitigating any hook spin .

[TEPaul]

Archie:

I think what you forgot to mention in that last post is what can happen if you hit it to the right of the green. THAT is where the real problems are!

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Are you actually asking me about the "flying elbow?"

Look, Big Fella, over the last 10-12 years I've taught you all you know about golf architecture and over that time you've only retained about 10% of what I know!


So now you're asking me about the golf swing and the "flying elbow" and when it went out of standard practice?

Pat, as you say, some great players like Miller Barber, Nicklaus, Freddie et al had a flying elbow, and I'm sure there've been teachers who said it was a very bad thing to do and a basic dunce like you probably listened to them or even paid them good money to teach you not to do that.

Listen, Patrick, the "flying elbow" thing that some say one shouldn't have is total BS. The Flying elbow for great players only happens on the upswing or backswing and nobody ever hit a golf ball with their backswing.

Just look where the elbows are of Barber, Nicklaus, Freddie et all who have flying elbows on there backswing when they are coming into the downswing and impact zone with their arms! Have you ever seen a great player's right elbow flying at that point?

You are a disaster Patrick, and I give up as your teacher. As far as I'm concerned you should spend the rest of the year in a corner of the classroom with a Dunce cap on!

[Scott Warren]

Some measurements, distances taken from Google Maps.

Carry to the start of the fairway from the 238y (217m) back tee: 191 yards (175m).

Carry to the start of the fairway from the 219y (200m) members tee: 172 yards (157m).

Length of fairway area short of green: 34 yards (31m).

Width of fairway area short of green: 27 yards (25m).

[Michael Latham]

Another take.
Playing my second round eve,r I was drawn this tee as my start hole in a match. I was very proud of the pin high one iron I hit to the top left of the putting surface. The pin was top right as you look at the hole from the tee. I had a put straight across the green which looked to my untutored eye to be slightly down hill.
The fringe caught and stopped the ball as it went ten feet past, two more putts and I had a solid four and was one down to an opponent who had played just off the front edge.
I only ever played to the front after that.

[archie_struthers]

 


In the immortal words of Closeau, "but of course" the right side is anathema to a good score.


As TEP  reminds, though my friend Patrick mocks my hook the hell out of it theory. There is a real justifiable fear of anything right of the green. I'd rather hit it off Mr Ewings house left than try to play thru the myriad of branches , pot bunkers , and assorted hob goblins that inhabit the right side of this famous hole.

Seriously, the right side of five and the back bunker on eight have ruined more medal play rounds of good players than anywhere else over the years . You always breathed a little sigh of relief when you , or your player, got past these two holes without incident!  

[TEPaul]

"Seriously, the right side of five and the back bunker on eight have ruined more medal play rounds of good players than anywhere else over the years . You always breathed a little sigh of relief when you got past these two holes without incident!"


You and I should start a list of all the little places on that golf course that a golfer just wouldn't want his ball to go that have created complete disasters! I guess If you've been around there long enough you realize almost every hole has something like that somewhere! Playing with Ott there as long as I did I saw him get out of some situations in some of the most creative ways imaginable that I sure wouldn't have thought of. He sure knew what not to try to do----obvlously from years of experience.

The place that always concerned me the most, Archie, was getting into the end of that left greenside bunker on #10. I was sorry to see them change that by widening it. The way it used to be was always on my mind on that tee!

[ed_getka]

Mike,
    I walked the course last fall for the Crump Cup and #5 was quite interesting to me. Tom Paul has it right that coming up short is the play if you aren't hitting it extremely well (and probably a good idea to be short even if you are hitting it well). You really bring the big trouble into play by trying to get all the way up onto the green where your margin of error becomes very small.
    I did a post of my impressions from my walkaround last year if you are interested in seeing what I had to say. PV was quite a revelation. It has always been one of the supreme tests in my imagination, along with Shinnecock, from what I have read over the years. I assumed PV would ridiculously difficult and very tight off the tees and it was a pleasant surprise to see that it wasn't nearly as daunting as I had expected. In no way is PV a pushover, but I think a thinking golfer could manage his way around okay. The carries aren't as long as I thought either. You certainly cannot play the course foozling it off the tee, but it isn't impossible by any means. I look forward to walking the course again this fall.
    See you at Dixie Cup. I owe you a dinner buddy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TE,

You ignorant slut.

The modern swing has almost all of the PGA Tour Pros disconnected at the top of their swings to create larger arcs that allow them to generate tremendous clubhead speed.

The question is, when did the leap to the modern swing occur ?

Archie,

I've seen guys take telephone numbers from left of the fairway on # 5, but, I suppose scores are considerably higher from right or long of that green.

I just don't know that trusting your ball to hook is a good strategy.

Scott,

Thanks.

192 yards, effectively 200 yards is a hell of a carry, especially uphill and when the air is heavy or the wind in your face.

# 5 is a formidable hole, but somehow, I'm more fearful on the 14th tee as I think my landing area is greater on # 5.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Michael,

I have never missed this green.

Yet, I have three putted many, many times.. Above the hole is tough.

God help you if you are short, right or left in the trees.

In my repertoire the most similar hole to this is number 3 at Myopia Hunt. I will go out on a limb here and say that Myopia is more difficult. I have never put my ball on the green there.

Malcolm

[Mike Hendren]

Above the hole is tough. God help you if you are short, right or left in the trees.

I rest my case.

Bogey

[Jim Franklin]

I played there last weekend and with the pin in back it played 246 from teh back tee. A nice high 3 wood draw later left me pin high with a ticklish down hill putt. With my partner X, I lagged a putt a few inches short and walked away with par. The next day it played 222 to a front pina dn I hit a hybrid just past the hole and two putted for par. Great hole and the green is a delight to putt.

I thought about hitting 4 or 5 iron short of the green, but the green is still very challenging, so I opted for the aggressive play. Two pars in two rounds is all I can ask for.

[Scott Warren]

Jim, two 3s is two half-birdies in my book.

I had a back-left pin at my first attempt, put in the LHS trap and was relieved to make a 4. Glad to have three additional attempts this Aug to improve on that.

Above all else, PV presents many holes on which you feel you really, surely, should have made better scores than you did, and to me that fact is intrinsic to its greatness.

[Mike Hendren]

Jim, that's pretty impressive.  Well done.

Is it fair to say that more so than any other course, Pine Valley does not suffer fools?

Mike

[Scott Warren]

Bogey,

It will suffer you making a fool of yourself once per hole, but get cute and do so more than once in overestimating your abilities to recover? You're toast!

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I'll never forget my first go at the fifth.  Stepped up and hit 2 iron to within a few inches and tapped in for two which felt as good as any other birdie that I've made after watching the SWWOG trainwreck over and over through the years.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim, that's pretty impressive.  Well done.

Is it fair to say that more so than any other course, Pine Valley does not suffer fools?

Mike

Exactly and that is what makes it so great.

[TEPaul]

"Is it fair to say that more so than any other course, Pine Valley does not suffer fools?"


Michael and Jim:


I would agree with that. I certainly do know whenever I've been there or talked with anyone from there and the subject of Pat Mucci comes up they sure do not suffer that fool!   

[Philip Gawith]

Scott,  you are right to draw attention to the likeness of the 13th at Addington, but I think PV 5th is a much more daunting shot because of the greater difficulty posed if you (likely) miss.

Agree with person who cites Dornoch 2 as example of a very daunting one shorter, but it is 3-4 clubs shorter (even into the wind) and that makes it more manageable.

[PAW13]

Gentlemen

Long time no type, hope you are all well.

Just had to chime in here when you are talking about the 5th at Pine Valley and note what two players have done on the 5th during the Crump Cup. 

Two players in different years have played three consecutive rounds during the Crump Cup and made a total of 6 on the hole.  The first player went 2-2-2 (the 2nd and 3rd during match play but both balls were holed).  The 2nd player went 1-2-3 with the first two in stroke play were the Hole in One was with a Driver to the back right pin.   

Player 1 proceeded to make 7 the next time he played the hole, I am not aware of what player 2 made!

[Patrick_Mucci]

PAW13,

Garden City Golf Club keeps scoring statistics on the holes during the Travis.
It would be great if PV did the same.

Individualized statistics are meaningless to everyone except the golfer producing them.

[PAW13]

Pat

At dinner each night of the stroke play portion of the Crump they hand out hole by hole scoring of all the players.  My guess would be the club has the information and some players may have saved that info and could shine some light on it.

By the way Mike McCoy (4 time Crump Champ) that went 1-2-3.