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Mike Hendren

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Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« on: June 07, 2012, 11:24:48 AM »
as intimidating at it looks?

This hole looks tough as nails from this photograph from Scott Warren's excellent thread:



Just how tough is it?

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2012, 11:28:58 AM »
Allow me to respond ... YES

"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2012, 11:30:25 AM »
Very much so for the mid capper. Depending upon set up and wind it can be a 3 metal to an all out hybrid. The pic does not do it justice. A friend lays up and plays it as a four. Excellent green, beautiful view a great hole.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2012, 12:16:27 PM »
Its very difficult, but plays quite wider than the picture makes it look.

TEPaul

Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2012, 12:22:38 PM »
Michael:

That is a very interesting question because that particular hole probably is the ultimate hole out there as a representation of this so-called theme of Pine Valley known as "Looks harder than it plays."

In my opinion, after playing that hole hundreds of times over there years, I just don't think it is as hard as it looks provided you play it in a particular way. Of the hundreds of times I've played that hole (most all of them in some kind of competition) I think I only selected a club I thought could get me all the way to the green about twice. The rest of the time I just took out a 2 iron and put it up in the fairway in front of the green and just putted from there or chipped and putted from there. Doing it that way my pecentage of 3s and 4s was about 50/50 which to me was a whole lot better than trying to go deep and missing it on either side of that green from which anyone could definitely make what is called a "Pine Valley Other."
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 12:24:22 PM by TEPaul »

Chris Roselle

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Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2012, 01:19:33 PM »
While I have not played the hole nearly as many times as the great Mr. Paul I would agree with his assesment of #5 100%.  I remember the first time I played the hole I tried to be heroic and hit the perfect cut driver from the back tee and wound up making a 5 or 6.  I happened to be playing the round with Chris Lange and he later told me that the prudent play there a majority of the time is too play just short of the green and take your chances getting up and down.

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 01:26:05 PM »
Tom,

I have not played the hole more than a dozen times but used your philosphy after the first attempt at the hole.

I am reminded of the Nelson vs Littler match on ABC's Wide World Of Golf  way back. It was painful to watch Gene Litttler come udone there.

Bob


















TEPaul

Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2012, 01:37:52 PM »
Bob:

Exactly.

Had Litter just put a 2 iron up into that fairway just below the green, I have little doubt (or should I say Litter doubt) that he would not have made the score on that hole he did.

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 02:12:07 PM »
Actually I thought this was a benign photograph of the 5thhole. Reality is much scarier!

Niall C

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Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2012, 02:43:02 PM »
Gents

Sounds like a cousin of the 2nd at Dornoch, in that those in the know or at least those that haven't previously been beaten into submission by the hole, tend to lay up and hope for a chip and a putt. I wonder how many times you have to play it to accept that philosophy. Do you play it the safe way in competition and go for broke in a bounce game or do you take the view that we only pass this way once and what the hell....

Niall

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2012, 04:31:47 PM »
 8) ::) ;D

I think the only prudent shot is a sllinging hook started at the right edge of the green . Left is tough , right only despair.  It's quite an excellent green also and three here is really a good score!

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2012, 04:34:36 PM »
If the title did not state PV, would this hole get accolades or be condemned from the picture?

Michael Tamburrini

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2012, 04:48:41 PM »
It's a hole I've been in love with since I was about 10. My very first golf book had a picture of it and I thought it was three most beautiful looking hole I'd ever imagined. Must be an incredible hole to play.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2012, 04:49:42 PM »
If the title did not state PV, would this hole get accolades or be condemned from the picture?

Condemned, unfairly.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2012, 05:05:20 PM »
There's an extremely similar hole at The Addington in south London (also involving Colt) which is also celebrated widely as a great par 3.5.


Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2012, 07:50:15 PM »
If the title did not state PV, would this hole get accolades or be condemned from the picture?
Photos don't really tell a whole story, just a snapshot in time. The hole is great.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2012, 08:14:01 PM »
There's an extremely similar hole at The Addington in south London (also involving Colt) which is also celebrated widely as a great par 3.5.



Scott,

The 13th at The Addington was the first thing that popped in my mind!  Well done!

The only other par-3 I can think of which requires such precision is the 16th at Cypress.

Cheers

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2012, 11:52:13 PM »
Mike,

The first time I ever played PV, in 1964, when I walked up onto the back of the 5th tee from the 4th green and looked across the abyss, I said, "wow, look at this par 4."

The caddy said, " this isn't a par 4, it's a par 3"

I looked again and said, "no way".

He handed me a scorecard and I was stunned.
It looked like a short, but incredibly difficult par 4.

I remember being amazed, as I had never seen a hole that came anywhere close to resembling this hole.

It looked impossible.

From the back tee the carry looked intimidating, going right looked horrendous and going left only looked a little better.

My partner was a 5 handicap, and we were playing a match against two Pros, Bob Shields and Dick Dacey.
My partner gets up and hits it down into the junk.
I'm not feeling good as I tee it up.
I hit a so-so 3-wood just short of the green.
At first I was disappointed that I didn't flush it and that i wasn't pin high, but when I got up to the green, just like the 1st hole, I was glad that I ended up where I was because any shot hit above 4:00 and 8:00 o'clock would be  in deep trouble.

My newest strategy is to hit a choked up driver, a low runner.
Unfortunately, my last attempt just ran slightly too long into a narrow back bunker where I hit one of my best recoveries to 3 feet.
If I had thinned it or hit it a little strong,  I would have run off the green, which again, isn't so bad as you have a decent cance of getting it up and down.

It's clearly one of the most intimidating shots in golf.

Unfortunately, there's a more intimidating looking shots just nine holes later.

The tee shot on # 14, I think is scarier since there's less land acting as a safety net.

It's almost the ultimate pass-fail tee shot.

It's either hit the green or a bunker or perish

Short is good, leaving the golfer with a run-up or putt for a 3, or a 4 at worst

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2012, 09:57:55 AM »
Patrick,  I really like the term pass-fail. 

Tom,  what is the minimum carry if one is merely interested in laying up in front?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2012, 10:04:18 AM »
Patrick,  I really like the term pass-fail. 

Tom,  what is the minimum carry if one is merely interested in laying up in front?

Mike

Michael:

I don't know the minimum carry, but I would guess it at 165 to 170 yards (if you are playing the back tee at 225).  I'm curious to see if I am right.  I don't think many people would think of hitting 5-iron there, but that's probably all it would take to be safely over the cross hazard.  Still, your odds of making 3 or 4 improve enormously if you can hit it 195-200 yards instead, so you're chipping up to the green instead of pitching.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2012, 10:11:29 AM »
In another thread -- "What do you gain, when you abstain?" -- Scott Warren asks whether it's better to show up at a course to experience it for the first time without having learned much about it.  This hole seems to present the issue perfectly -- from what everyone has said, if you hadn't studied PV, on your first play you probably wouldn't recognize that the best play is in front of the green . . . and that might lead to making a huge number.  On the other hand, if you study the hole and know that going in, you lose the experience of discovering it on the ground, so to speak.

Haven't played PV, but I'm not sure which approach I prefer. 

archie_struthers

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Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2012, 10:15:18 AM »
 ??? ;D 8)


It's probably more like a 190 carry to get it on top of the plateau from the back due to the uphill...club historian Warner Shelley did TEP one better , he laid up short of the road...and made a boatload of fours in his late seventies and eighties   

mike_malone

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Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2012, 10:44:01 AM »
 As a midhandicapper I say it was less intimadating than other tee shots because most of us prefer to hit a wood/hybrid versus a long iron. The opening is in front with no hazard to deal with. It is what enters your mind that matters most to us mid handicappers.
AKA Mayday

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2012, 12:22:16 PM »
The member who brought me out there nearly holed out on his first try playing it.  Club president watching too..

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2012, 11:35:19 PM »
??? ;D 8)


It's probably more like a 190 carry to get it on top of the plateau from the back due to the uphill...club historian Warner Shelley did TEP one better , he laid up short of the road...and made a boatload of fours in his late seventies and eighties   

Archie,

Were there any witnesses ?
That's a hard location to make bogey from.

Agreed on the 190, but, I guess tee location, and weather conditions are also major factors.

From 1964 to present, I wouldn't play the hole with a 5-iron off the tee, but then again, I don't hit a 5-iron 200 yards, never did.

Tom Doak,

Unless someone's a real power hitter, I don't see a 5-iron as the club of choice, especially from the back tees.