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Ran Morrissett

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Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« on: June 06, 2012, 05:17:24 PM »
When GolfClubAtlas.com went live in 1999, it did do with 30 course profiles under the Courses by Country section. Approximately half were written by my brother John and the rest by me. We have added about 150 since and one of the most unusual ones – and certainly the one that has provoked some of the most amusing emails – was John’s on Walnut Lane. Written in 2001, it wasn’t the black and white photos that made it stand out as opposed to the fact that this sub 5,000 yard municipal course outside of Philadelphia looked a little bit out of place beside profiles on Pine Valley, Royal Melbourne, etc.

As I recall, I got an email in the ~ 2005 timeframe from a man asking if Walnut Lane’s inclusion was some sort of joke. Regardless, he harrumphed that he wanted no part of a web site whereby people changed into their golf shoes in the parking lot. Oh well – win some, lose some. John’s write-up has always made me want to get there. Read my brother’s profile found here http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/walnut-lane/ and see if you don’t agree that this par 62 course packs quite a punch, courtesy of such standout holes as the 8th, 12th and 14th. Looking at my brother’s photos, the architect’s use of the land seems both varied and exciting. Plus, here is a man with the guts - as well as clout - to say that a par 62 is the best that could emerge from that particular parcel of land. All very inspiring if you ask me.

Walnut Lane’s architect was Alex Findlay and truthfully, that didn’t mean anything at all to me at the time. Nonetheless, it sounded like such a crafty design that I have always been keen to learn more about him. Hence this month’s Feature Interview with his grandson Richard.

Of course, the more one reads, the more one comes to appreciate how little one knows and that is certainly the case with me having read this Feature Interview several times now. Coincidentally, it turns out Walnut Lane built around 1935 might have been Alex’s last course. His first one came 48 years earlier in Nebraska! Without any doubt, here is one of the pioneers that help spread the game in the United States yet his efforts have gone unrecognized and hugely unappreciated. How he (and Tom Bendelow for that matter) is not in the World Golf Hall of Fame speaks more about that institution than it does about Alex’s contributions.

Richard writes as any proud grandson would and covers about as much territory as his grandfather once did. As the architect of nearly 500 courses (!) from Boston to Montana, Alex spread and promoted golf like perhaps no one before or after. The only logical comparisons came be with Tom Bendelow and Donald Ross but they spread the game as paid professionals: Alex always remained an amateur. An immensely talented player from the very start, he clearly loved golf for golf’s sake and the game loved him back for a long, long time. Richard estimates that his grandfather played over 2,400 courses in his life which is a staggering number given that he moved to the largely golf barren United States in the winter of 1886/1887 and what transportation was like back then.

Alex was the most famous Findlay but there were many others. His brother Fred gets the design credit for Farmington CC in Charlottesville, VA, which some traditionalists consider to this day the best course in Virginia.

Anyway, it is always mission accomplished when you can fill in a gapping hole in design history. Hopefully, you will find this Feature Interview as informative as I did.

Cheers,

Joe Bausch

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2012, 05:31:01 PM »
Excellent!  I've known Richard for a few years now and he is fun to work with.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kyle Harris

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2012, 07:17:06 PM »
Walnut Lane is great fun and has one of the most endearing uses of three consecutive one-shot holes I've seen. One hole plays down onside of a valley, the next across, and the third back up the other side.

Good 300-350 yard two-shotters as well!

Alex Findlay is massively under appreciated outside of the northeast.

Thank you Richard.

Sam Morrow

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2012, 08:52:14 PM »
I like the Findlay courses I've played, also interesting that he did a course in Nebraska in 1887. It looks like it was fairly close to the Sand Hills.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2012, 11:40:52 PM »
Richard
Very informative interview. I've always gotten the impression Alex Findlay was an astute business man. Very early on (in Boston) he became associated with the large, up and coming club makers and golf retailers. And that trend continued over the years with people like Wanamaker, in NYC and Philadelphia. During those formative years whenever a big name golfer or group of golfers visited or toured America he was usually their host and guide.

Did he make a lot of money from the game?

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2012, 09:39:50 AM »
Richard:

I need to read your interview more carefully, but first I want to ask you if you are aware if Alex Findlay designed a little twelve hole golf course on an island in Maine known as Islesborough (we also call it Dark Harbor)? The club, which is both a yacht club and golf course is called Tarrantine.

This little golf course is one of the most interesting I'm aware of these days because it very well be one of the most untouched and unaltered golf courses in America from perhaps the end of the 19th century! I have always heard that Alex Findlay did it but when I asked the club a few years ago they didn't have any way of confirming it; it was simply a matter of the oral history of the course.

I've known it throughout my life because my grandparents had a house there and spent the summers there as did their children and grandchildren. The island community is so interesting as well as it was begun towards the end of the 19th century as a summer community of sort of the rich and famous from Boston, New York, a few from St. Louis, but mostly Philadelphians. Apparently they were all friends who got together, formed a corporation, and bought about half the island on which they put these fascinationg (architecturally and otherwise) houses that they refer to as "cottages" (others would refer to them as mansions).

It is today perhaps one of the best examples in America of a true "throw-back in time." The community has historically been opposed to any form of modernizing apparently in some effort to keep things pure and old fashioned. For instance they did not even allow cars on the island until the 1930s. (some years ago John Travolta bought the old George Childs Drexel mansion and he asked the community if he could fly his jets in there if he extended and improved their airport runways but the community refused his request).

I don't believe you're on GOLFCLUBALTLAS.com so if you wouldn't mind you can contact me at tpaul25737@aol.com.

Thank you Richard

Lester George

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 10:52:11 AM »
TEP,

Yet another "small world" coincidence on the ever converging path of Tom Paul and Lester George.  I visited the island a few years back as the guest of Tarratine (you have an extra "n" in there.  I was brought in to consult with the club on creating a master plan to "make the golf course better".  I guess my surprise at how untouched it was when I toured it was obviuos because I found myself defending the uniqueness of the course.  I was less than entusiastic about converting greens to USGA style and removing blind shots.  Long story short, I talked them out of changing it.  Extraordinary place and I really fell in love with the whole Island.  I even bought a locally authored book about the history of the Island.  I think I remember one passage that speculated there were no cars on the island until the mid 30's.  I would be happy to share that book with you if I can find it.

Lester

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2012, 10:58:06 AM »
"TEP,
Yet another "small world" coincidence on the ever converging path of Tom Paul and Lester George."



Lester:

You and I really do have to stop meeting this way, and if we continue to at least let's try not to admit it in public!

Lester George

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 11:05:08 AM »
Tom,

Do you know of the book I reference about the history of the island?

Lester

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2012, 11:12:09 AM »
Lester:

Good for you on what you advised the club to do with the course----eg just leave it alone! I believe the course as originally built had only one sand bunker on it (on hole #2) but for some reason some decades ago someone removed the sand! You have to admit that that little twelve hole golf course has some of the coolest natural rocky, craggy topography and features on it you ever laid out your eyes upon. (I use that term "laid out" there to mean planning on a PRE-construction topographical contour map and not laying out a routing on the ground as that duffus from the Left Coast is trying to claim it only means).

If the book you bought was written by a lady whose last name is Parrish, I have that book and it is a very interesting history of the island. The lady who wrote it is actually the daughter of the ultra famous and iconic American interior decorator by the name of Sister Parrish (Sister's husband was of that famous family who were noted for their book and art collections---one of them was the man who had that famous house at Pine Valley once known as the Parrish House and now known as Dormie House---that WASP world back then really was a pretty small and very tight and interrelated one, Lester, and this is just more evidence of it); she decorated many of the homes of that great American WASP world back then which is now fairly gone with the wind. She also decorated the White House for Jackie Kennedy. Sister Parrish had a lovely little bright yellow house looking out on the harbor. Her driveway was right next to the driveway of my grandparent's place. Sister Parrish's other daughter, D.B., was actually the first girl I fell in love with when I was about nine years old (she was about eighteen at the time). I'll never forget how much her blond hair and dark eyebrows turned me on! And she was also an incredible jock!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 11:41:16 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2012, 11:36:44 AM »
Lester, when you were there on Isleborough (Dark Harbor) you may not have noticed it but there is a substantial island right next to it called Gibson Island. It belonged to perhaps America's most famous illustrator by the name of Charles Dana Gibson. It was his summer home.

I mention this to you (of Virginia) because Gibson was connected by marriage to perhaps one of the most interesing families of post Civil War Virginia there ever was. Their name was Langhorne and their incredible Virginia estate was known as Mirador.

Chillie Langehorne was the father. He had one son and five daughters. Those daugters were real world-beaters and a wonderful book was written about them called "The Five Sisters."

They essentially became the personification and representation of the post Civil War "Southern Belle." They went north and abroad to England and socially conquered both. One of them was the famous Lady Astor* (the first women member of Parliament, and she was American). Her sister married Gibson and the sisters became the model of the famous and iconic illustrations of that time known as the "Gibson Girl." They were all over magazines everywhere. You can still find those old magazines and those Gibson Girl illustrations (look it up on Google). They were pretty and pert-nosed and extremely fashionable in a long and willowy sort of way which apparently was supposed to be the ideal example of the female look of that once great old American WASP world.


*Her husband, William Waldorf Astor's (Lord Astor) mother was an electric lady from Philadelphia and a Main Line town known back then as Villa Nova, by the name of Mary Paul.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 11:50:20 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2012, 12:21:53 PM »
It is a shame that instead of focusing on Mr. Findlay's grandfather's accomplishments or even on the interview itself, the thread seems to have been diverted into yet another episode of Lifestyles of the Privileged and Pompous, and by someone who didn't even have the courtesy to first carefully read the interview. My guess is he couldn't be bothered with reading it at all.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2012, 12:28:17 PM »
AH, HAH!!

Why did I know that last post was going to be coming shortly?  ;)

Has anyone ever wondered why David Moriarty has essentially spent his career on this website researching and focusing and fixating on the histories of significant golf courses on the East Coast where me and my family come from instead of focusing on golf courses where he came from or where he know lives?   ???

DMoriarty

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2012, 12:47:45 PM »
Actually Alex Findlay did design a course in a town where my grandfather had a house.  I am interested in that course and have done some research on it, but because I have read the interview and the linked material I know that Mr. Findlay is already well aware of the course, as he is the island course in Maine.  I could regale the readers with stories of the town's fascinating (to me) and important history, but that might detract from the topic of the thread. This thread isn't about me or an interesting town where I have long family connections. I hope we can now return to a discussion of the interview and/or the under appreciated work of Alex Findlay.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2012, 01:06:26 PM »
David Moriarty:


Please do regale all of us about that town and your grandfather or whatever. I am certain we will be "all ears."

Sometimes the history of golf course architecture can be a bit dry. That's why many of us need to put it into some historical context of its places and peoples. If you don't like that then why do you bother to read those threads and participate in them by telling people you aren't interested in reading what they write?

If Ran Morrissett doesn't like what some write he tends to tell them. If you want to be this site's Administrator, why don't you ask him?

As for telling me you aren't interested in the past glorious of the Old South or the past glories of Isleborough Maine and its glorious WASP world, as far as I'm concerned you can stuff it Bucko! Lester and I are really into that sort of thing and discussing it on here because we've experienced it together as our paths cross in the damnest places to do with some wonderful old clubs and courses.

DMoriarty

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2012, 01:21:59 PM »
Rattle on all you like.  Every barnyard is bound to have old hens.  I just wish you wouldnt derail a thread about an interview you didn't even bother to read.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2012, 01:33:32 PM »
I've now read it.

It is extremely interesting to me that Richard says his grandfather dedicatedly tried to protect his amateur playing status and that he was never paid for architecture. That I did not know about Alex Findlay and his architectural career.

Frankly, that is a fascinating subject to discuss with Richard and another fascinating subject to discuss on here with anyone who knows something about it, as it says a whole lot about some of the workings of the USGA on Amateur Status issues throughout those years.

Would you, David Moriarty, care to guess who one of the central people was within the USGA through much of Findlay's career who decided upon and even wrote a number of the USGA resolutions on Amateur Status? Do you know anything about that? Do you care anything about that? Do you think any of that relates to golf architecture in America or do you think that is off topic too?

DMoriarty

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2012, 01:41:00 PM »
I know plenty about it but am not interested in discussing it with you.  Please have a courtesy to start a different thread it you insist on playing know-it-all with that topic as well.   I am still hoping this one will work its way back to Alex Findlay and his architecture. 

I am glad you finally bothered to actually read the interview.   If I have accomplished nothing else at least I have shamed you into that. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Lester George

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2012, 02:18:24 PM »
David,

When Tom related his story of Isleboro it was yet another chance to discover an interesting pattern of subjects that keep finding their way into the intersections of related experiences we have had.  These subjects include golf archtiecture, building architecture, military history, and friends in common.   

Without getting personal, Tom Paul and I have had this dilemma since before we even met, so I find it interesting that you want to derail the thread by attacking that set of coincidental circumstances without even noticing that it was I that got him off on the tangent. 

David, I don't know you from the man on the corner, heck, I have only spent very limited time with Tom Paul since I first met him 4 years ago.  What I don't understand is why, if you despise him as much as you demonstrate, would you even waste the time to engage him?  I know from my own experiences on this site that you have contributed many thought-provoking and valuable discussions on architecture, which I find myself reading, and in some cases, learning from.  Don't spoil that for us by this constant barrage of hatred and mindless crap.  If we stray off subject it's becuase we can.  My advice would be to just leave it alone.  Please.

Lester

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2012, 02:37:07 PM »
"I am glad you finally bothered to actually read the interview.   If I have accomplished nothing else at least I have shamed you into that."



You really do think just about everything somehow revolves around you, don't you? I read the interview before you unfortunately showed up on this thread. If you're so interested in Alex Findlay then why don't you start talking about Alex Findlay or some of his architecture, as Lester and I have just done, instead of talking endlessly about me, which is all you've done on this thread.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 02:44:14 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2012, 02:40:10 PM »
Lester,  It wasn't you who got him off on the tangent, he was long gone before you chimed in with your interesting story actually about Findlay's work.

I spoke up because I am interested in reading more about Alex Findlay, and I was disappointed to see that like so many others the thread had been diverted by TEPaul's ramblings, and also because I find it rude and disrespectful to all of us for him to have done this without even bothering to read the underlying interview.  I am just trying to turn things back in the right direction.   

That said, I appreciate your story of advising on the Terratine Course. Have you any other experience working on or advising about Findlay courses? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2012, 02:47:55 PM »
Moriarty, you aren't the Moderator of this website, so why don't you just quit acting like you are ?

Ran Morrissett is the Moderator and if he doesn't want somebody discussing something he tells them. We don't need you to do his job for him even though it appears you're trying to do it without him asking you to!

If you're so interested in Alex Findlay then start talking about him instead of me!

It's Tarratine, not Terratine!   ::) Have you ever even heard of it?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 02:52:35 PM by TEPaul »

Lester George

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2012, 03:06:24 PM »
David,

I have consulted at Abenakee, in Bidderford Pool, ME which many think is by Alex Findlay.  Also, the first nine hole course at The Greenbrier was by Findlay, which I never got to see, lays where portions of the Meadows Course is now.  In doing my research there, I found old newspaper accounts of the course and the clubhouse previously unknown to the historians at the Greenbrier which elated them.  

His version of Roanoke Country Club was abandoned but I did work on that history as part of restoration of their new location.  Of course Alex Findlay renovated Rock Manor (1922)  in Wilmington, DE in 1937 and took it from a homegrown course to slightly over 7,000 yards.  Rock Manor stayed predominently the Alex Findlay version intil Interstae 95 chopped off almost 4 holes in the 60's (Ithink).  When I renovated Rock Manor, there was some remnants of some of his original work (very cool stuff) but unfortunately I couldn't use it in the new design.  

His brother Fred Findlay is actually in my "architectural lineage" and I have consulted on some (7) of Freds courses including Boonsboro, CCV River, CCV Westhampton, Meadowbrook and Lakeview.  

Lester

Tom MacWood

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2012, 03:11:17 PM »
Findlay was reinstated as an amateur in 1910 by the USGA. That was around the time he began working for Wanamakers. Before that he designed and sold golf clubs and balls. I assumed since he was reinstated that he was getting paid for those clubs, and was considered a professional.

When Vardon and Ray toured in 1913 AHF was described as their 'manager,' and although the two professionals made thousands on that trip Findlay emphasized he did not share in the gate. At the time he was working for Wanamakers, and I would assume his employer was picking up his tab, which is sort of a gray area.

Are you certain he never accepted a design fee? I don't believe Macdonald ever lost his amateur status because he never accepted a fee.

Did AHF compete in any of the major amateur events?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 03:14:22 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

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Re: Feature Interview with Richard Findlay is posted
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2012, 03:16:40 PM »
Lester,

Do you think the work you were viewing at Tarratine was still Findlay's doing?   If so, could you perhaps describe some of what you thought might have been his work?   For example, you already mentioned blind shots, and not wanting to change the greens.  What was it about the greens that you liked and thought worth preserving?  Could you see the connection to any of the other Findlay work you have seen? For example the remnants at Rock Manor?   Thanks.
__________________________________________


Tom MacWood, I was wondering some of the same things about his status.  In the few US Opens I have checked in which he played, he is not listed as an amateur, but those were before long before 1910.  I don't recall ever seeing him listed as having played in any major Amateur event, but I haven't done an exhaustive search.

Could it be that he was a professional early on, then got reinstated as an amateur in 1910, then lost his amateur status (again) because he was working for a manufacturer?    
______________________________

David Findlay was an early professional at Spokane Country Club.  Anyone know if that was the same David Findlay, brother of Alex Findlay? 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 03:18:17 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)