[Matthew Essig]

Phil, I get what you're saying. But to me, this is like the NBA. Every few years, the players' whining to officials gets out of hand. Or palming of the basketball gets a little too common. When that happens, the league doesn't write new rules. It just places a point of emphasis on the current rules.

There's no reason to write a new rule about pace of play when we already have rules that just aren't being used. Just start enforcing the rules currently on the books and in the official rules of golf.

+1

[Joe Stansell]

Jason, the rules of golf don't define "undue delay," and they allow the "Committee" to establish guidelines for pace of play. Why wouldn't Pat's suggestion for a "pace of play guideline" fit appropriately within this rule without "changing the rule"?

[Grant Saunders]

Set a benchmark of 3 hrs for a round.

For every 20 minute block longer than 3 hrs it takes to play the round, add 1 shot to the players total score for their round. For every 20 mins block under 3hrs, remove a shot from the players score.

For example, a player shooting 72 but taking 4 hrs would have 3 shots added to their score making their total 75. A player shooting 72 and taking 2 hours 40 would have 1 shot subtracted from their score returning a total of 71.

[jeffwarne]

Set a benchmark of 3 hrs for a round.

For every 20 minute block longer than 3 hrs it takes to play the round, add 1 shot to the players total score for their round. For every 20 mins block under 3hrs, remove a shot from the players score.

For example, a player shooting 72 but taking 4 hrs would have 3 shots added to their score making their total 75. A player shooting 72 and taking 2 hours 40 would have 1 shot subtracted from their score returning a total of 71.

and when the groups in front of you plays in 5 hours because they're all missing the cut anyway what happens to you?
no simple solution to a tough problem

[Will Peterson]

Set a benchmark of 3 hrs for a round.

For every 20 minute block longer than 3 hrs it takes to play the round, add 1 shot to the players total score for their round. For every 20 mins block under 3hrs, remove a shot from the players score.

For example, a player shooting 72 but taking 4 hrs would have 3 shots added to their score making their total 75. A player shooting 72 and taking 2 hours 40 would have 1 shot subtracted from their score returning a total of 71.

and when the groups in front of you plays in 5 hours because they're all missing the cut anyway what happens to you?
no simple solution to a tough problem

I know a lot of professional golfers, and if they know they are going to miss a cut, they will be the fastest ones on the course.  No one likes to stay around when you know you're not playing on the weekend.  The same goes for a lot of guys who are way back on the weekend.  I bet if you look at the times of the first few groups off, you would be surprised how fast they play, with the exception of a few guys.  I remember being shocked at how quick the early groups were moving when I went to the Player's a few years back.

The simple and easiest way to keep people moving is a time goal for the round completion.  It has become standard for amateur and junior events, and doesn't take a bunch of staff.  Your group must finish either within the allotted time or within 15 minutes of the group in front of you. 

A few weeks ago, I played in the Florida Mid-Am Stroke Play.  In the first round, we waited on nearly every shot, and it seemed like things were moving very slowly.  I knew we weren’t going to be penalized because we were right up on the group in front of us, but when we finished, we found that we were within our allotted time.  I know that 4:25 isn’t fast, but it’s a lot better than it used to be.  I have found that nearly all the events I have played in during the past five years run by state golf associations (FSGA and WSGA), including USGA qualifying events, have played within the allotted time.  When I play events put on by other groups, the pace is drastically worse.  It is solely due to policing, because usually the fields have a lot of the same players. 

A perfect example is the WSGA and WPLA.  A few years ago, I played in the WSGA Match Play, WSGA Director’s Cup, and three USGA and WSGA qualifying events.  Pace was set around 4:30, and each round finished in 4:30 or less.  Pace was enforced.  The fastest event was the US Am Qualifier.  Thirty six in one day will get people moving, especially if you want time for lunch.  Last year, we played our second 18 in around 3:25.  It was a bit of a surprise.  My parents want to watch the back nine since they hadn't seen me play an event in over 10 years.  By the time they got there, we were teeing off on 15. 

I played in the Ray Fischer and US Publix qualifier which were put on by the WPLA.  Each round in each event was well over five hours, and the first round of the Fischer was near six.  Pace was not enforced.  Our group was put on the clock at one point (not really sure why since we were the last tee time and weren’t out of position).  We sped up a bit, and after one hole had a twenty five minute wait on a tee.

Slow players know when they can get away with it and when they can’t.  They know how to cut a few seconds here and there from each shot when they need to, and will get done within pace if they know it’s going to be enforced.

[Stuart Goldstein]

Want to increase pace of play on tour-let them use Busnells during competition.  No more walking off distances, double checking yardage books and caddies trying to do math.

[Brent Hutto]

The simple and easiest way to keep people moving is a time goal for the round completion.  It has become standard for amateur and junior events, and doesn't take a bunch of staff.  Your group must finish either within the allotted time or within 15 minutes of the group in front of you.  

[...]

Slow players know when they can get away with it and when they can’t.  They know how to cut a few seconds here and there from each shot when they need to, and will get done within pace if they know it’s going to be enforced.

Exactly. And on the PGA Tour, at least until very recently, it hasn't even been a matter of getting away with it. There has been zero, zip, nada, zilch reason for a given player not to be the slowest guy in the field. Well, maybe another player will say something bad about him in the media. But if it doesn't involves strokes or disqualification, it doesn't really matter to those guys.

P.S. In terms of very minor, perhaps only symbolic steps, the Tour could go all Augusta National and instruct the announcers on their telecasts to stop praising players for "taking their time" or "not hitting until they're ready" or just generally slowing down. Just STFU about it and at least you won't keep reinforcing this new social norm that unless you're playing slow as molasses you're not serious about the game.

[Carl Nichols]

Want to increase pace of play on tour-let them use Busnells during competition.  No more walking off distances, double checking yardage books and caddies trying to do math.

It is interesting that the tour utilizes what I assume is fairly sophisticated technology to track shots, distances, etc., but the players are left using none.  I kinda like that they don't get to use technology, but the disconnect is huge.

[Matthew Petersen]

The simple and easiest way to keep people moving is a time goal for the round completion.  It has become standard for amateur and junior events, and doesn't take a bunch of staff.  Your group must finish either within the allotted time or within 15 minutes of the group in front of you.  

[...]

Slow players know when they can get away with it and when they can’t.  They know how to cut a few seconds here and there from each shot when they need to, and will get done within pace if they know it’s going to be enforced.

Exactly. And on the PGA Tour, at least until very recently, it hasn't even been a matter of getting away with it. There has been zero, zip, nada, zilch reason for a given player not to be the slowest guy in the field. Well, maybe another player will say something bad about him in the media. But if it doesn't involves strokes or disqualification, it doesn't really matter to those guys.

P.S. In terms of very minor, perhaps only symbolic steps, the Tour could go all Augusta National and instruct the announcers on their telecasts to stop praising players for "taking their game" or "not hitting until they're ready" or just generally slowing down. Just STFU about it and at least you won't keep reinforcing this new social norm that unless you're playing slow as molasses you're not serious about the game.

To that same end, I think the PGA Tour making public the list of players getting fined for slow play would also help. How many times does Player X have to get asked about how much he's paid in fines at every media session before he starts to pick it up? never mind that his sponsors aren't going to be happy about having their name on the hat of a guy who's now known for being slow.

Peer pressure doesn't always work, but public pressure--especially in a sport where sponsor dollars and endorsement mean so much--really can.

[Tom Kelly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl7B55srBhs

[Carl Johnson]

From my personal standpoint, as a spectator, slow play in show-biz tournament golf is a nonissue.  If I'm watching on TV, I expect the TV producers to move the shown-picture around so that I don't waste a lot of time watching unusually long preparation.  Sometimes they do a better job than others.  When I watch at an event in person, I'm mostly wandering around by myself taking in the scene as a whole.  I can't really just focus on the play when watching in person.  For the most part the golfers are pretty dull people as sports entertainers, but it's good to be out on a great course on a nice day and feel the vibe.

On the other hand, from the standpoint of tournament management, I can see how slow play would be a problem.  I don't think Na's waggles and the like are the problem, rather the shot preparation time.  I think I'd go for something like a X-second rule and a shot penalty for each violation.  I'd go for X = 45 starting with the tilme it is your turn, assuming you've reached the ball in a reasonable length of time.  Officials would have to make some subjective judgments.  So be it.

Slow play among recreational golfers is a different issue.

[RJ_Daley]

I agree with someone above who talked about having enough technology to adequately regulate the slow play on the tour, and those identifying the concept of when it is your turn to play, get on with it.  For instance, given the game is one of honor where calling penalties on oneself is part of the ethic, each caddie or bag used in competition should have a clock meter of sorts with a control central radio satellite at the course.  On the tee, if you are first to play, the caddie or player presses the button, and starts a monitored clock.  The device could be as small as the tiniest phone.  You then have 45 seconds to play your ball.  If there is an outside player controlled agency, like wind blows ball off tee, or spectator that inadvertently walks in LZ, the clock can be stopped.  Otherwise, club change, wind gust, etc, can not stop the clock.  After each player hits, they are to walk efficiently to the ball, and first to play, sets bag down, pushes button and has 45 seconds.  As soon as that player's ball is away, the next to play does the same thing, push button - start 45 second clock.  If the player takes more than 45 seconds, a red light comes on, and a radio to the tournament control (which could be a mere computer monitor to record the light 45 second violation.  If the player gets (say 3) in a round, they get dinged a stroke.  Exceptions can be made for legitimate ball search, O.B., need to go back to tee or penalty drop etc.  But, upon addressing the penalty situation, lost ball etc, when it is your turn to play, press the button, start the clock.  Failure by caddie or player to engage the button, or play games with circumventing, is automatic penalty called by official on course.

Private play at clubs or public courses are a different matter, also addressed by a few above.  There are plenty of legitimate and creative ways for club operators, club pro, committee, or owner- muni overseer, to regulate.  I favor the incentive concept, where a total 9 hole or 18 hole time is rated for that course, and a punch ticket is given to the group, with a time punch on first tee to have card punched time stamped upon leaving first tee.  They can then punch at a time stamp machine after 9 holes or 18th hole greens, and turn it in for say recovery of a 5-10 time deposit if they meet the time, or forfeit the deposit.  Or, a credit in grill room, etc.  Also, a proper ranger program to be a 'player assistant' to keep the pace going, and signage "You should reach this tee after 5th hole in X minutes, 9th in X hour and minutes, 18th in X hour, and minutes.  You could even put the a couple other time punch machines at 6th tee, 10th tee and 15 tee.  Even if the group had fallen behind the course rated benchmark at an intermediate hole along the way, they can take responsibility to make it up with holes remaining.  And, the same thing could be applied to local tournaments and outtings. 

There are plenty of methods and workable ideas to address this; it only just requires a deeper sense of commitment from the powers that be who are supposed to take care of the game as an institution. 

[Tim_Cronin]

Pat, could you scoot up to Benton Harbor for the weekend? Six-hour rounds (almost to the minute) in the first round of the Senior PGA Championship at Harbor Shores. Windy, and crazy greens, and long shuttle rides between some holes, but six hours? It was like the U.S. Women's Open broke out. I hope it's better today.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, could you scoot up to Benton Harbor for the weekend? Six-hour rounds (almost to the minute) in the first round of the Senior PGA Championship at Harbor Shores. Windy, and crazy greens, and long shuttle rides between some holes, but six hours? It was like the U.S. Women's Open broke out. I hope it's better today.

Tim,

Six (6) hour rounds ?

Yikes.

Were they playing eightsomes ?

[Joe Bausch]

Maybe we need more writers like Ralph Trost for the Brooklyn Daily Eagle in 1929!

[Doug Siebert]

That old article is quite interesting.  Tommy Armour was playing 99.9 strokes per hour, which is just under 36 seconds per stroke.  He was the slowest player timed (almost 5x as slow as the fastest!) yet he would be slightly under the modern pro's 38 seconds average.

I'm not sure if the methodology was the same, since in the article they were timing after they'd taken their stance (which makes Tommy Armour look legendarily slow at 36 seconds!) while the PGA tour is apparently doing it after they've selected their club.

I don't think either method is measuring properly, it should start when its your turn.  If you have the honor, the clock starts when the first player or caddie in your group sets foot on the tee box.  At all other times it starts when it is your turn and you're within five yards of your ball.  Some slow players are like Tommy Armour, and take forever once they are apparently ready to play.  Other players are slow because they dick around selecting the club, checking the wind, checking yardages, etc.  It's especially galling if they don't even begin that process until the group ahead has cleared the green, or it is their turn.

As for whether that sort of thing makes interesting TV, I like the opportunity to listen to that exchange when the player has a particularly difficult shot, like a recovery from a wild drive or some sort of crazy impossible up and down.  But whether people like or don't like such exchanges has nothing do with slow play, as during most of the tournament there is plenty of opportunity to show other players.  When its down to the final few groups, then go ahead and show it.  If they have room amongst all the commercials, that is.

[Niall C]

Doug

I agree with you. To me its the fannying around when its not their turn to play that causes the slow play. The clock should start as soon as they are at their ball AND its their turn. One guy hits and the clock starts for the next. Hearing chat about yardages and wind directions is as dull as dish water, maybe fine if its a critical moment but not when its someone in the middle of the pack playing the first hole in the 3rd round.

Patrick

Re post #10, a marvellous rant with an awful lot to commend it. I particularly like the comment about todays golfers being reluctant to let faster groups through. Twice I've nearly come to blows with a playing partner who refused to let through a group behind who had been waiting patiently for several holes to play through. I find that women golfers have got more sense in this regard whereas its usually guys who cause the problems.

The one comment I can't agree with is your comment that taking the overall time into account as being the way to judge slow play. If you dos then how do you judge which member of the group is causing the slow play (assuming that its usually one player in particular), do you penalise the other two as well ? I don't know if you noticed, and it doesn't seemed to have been mentioned on here, but Ross Fisher got penalised a penalty shot for slow play last week while playing in the final group on the last day in the Euro Tiour event. Now imagine if you will, that if one of the group in front were tied for the lead with someone in the final group, and the whole of the final group got penalised one shot because of Fisher, what kind of stink that would make. Do you think that would be right or do you think it would be detrimental in encouraging faster play ?

Niall

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am not sure I believe any of these numbers. I do not see 38 second anything unless he is times from address until shot taken. It sure des not include the time spend determining what club to hit and then the execution of the shot in total. I wish anything under 4 hours was happening in the real world of the tour, any tour. slow play and incredibly methodical preparation is the norm and some guys merely are poster children for slow play. I do not care if the micro or macro manage, just fix it. Penalty is the only way I know. Just enforce it.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()