The greatness of Pine Valley's set of greens

[TEPaul]

Mark,

"Everyone plays the hole great....... In their mind

Hit it short and routine two putt.

Only problems,
1.  It's a long and difficult two putt.
2.  You can plan to hit it short, but a mis-hit will result in a likely bogey
3.   Golfers have a set image or opinion of their games and I can't imagine a golfer
       Hitting short on all of the dicey holes and deliberately accepting scores higher
       Than par, it's counter to the golfer's ego."



Pat:

That is a very interesting remark, particularly about Pine Valley.

I suppose this kind of thing sort of goes to some of the nuances of Pine Valley and its architecture and why it is so great! Did you know that Crump intentionally modeled and designed #1 after a hole abroad that was a "tie-breaker?"

Consequently, that hole's risk/reward equations depending on what someone is playing in and at what point they are playing in it is truly amazing.

On that hole if I was playing in a recreational round I would hit driver every time and then try to go into the middle of the green on the approach. But if I was playing stroke play and particularly the Crump Cup qualifier that for various reasons just might have been the most intense stroke play I ever played anywhere on any golf course, I would always tee off with a 1 or 2 iron and then lay-up just in front of the green. That way I figured I could make a hard two putt par and no worse than a bogie.

I just can't tell you how well that worked out over the years compared to so many of my fellow competitors who got agressive with that hole and paid for it with a double or worse!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TE,

That's a strategy that's usually not available in the spring and summer when rollout is limited.

Hitting a 2-iron off # 1 tee left you what distance to the green ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Generally 200+. But from that I was only using like a 5-6 iron to come up in front of the green. I looked over that green-end very carefully over the years and I could see the width on that approach was just enough more than where the green began and then it got progressively narrower the farther you went into the green.

One time I did that in match play in the Crump against Canada's Gary Cowan. The pin was at the very back of the green and he proceded to hit a 6 iron to about two feet. At that point I realized maybe that kind of strategy in match play shouldn't be the thing for me to try and particularly since I was so short off the tee with my driver I was always hitting first and did not much get the opportunity to see what my opponent did first.

I know what you mean when there isn't much roll but I hit my driver pretty high without trying and my 1 and 2 iron pretty low off the tee so even when there wasn't much run with a driver I got enough of it with those irons so they weren't that far apart with the driver. I'm not kidding when I tell you in the softer conditions most of the time it wasn't more than about 10-15 yards. Also interestingly I had a natural fade with the driver and a natural draw off the tee with those irons which got them more run and closer to the driver.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TE,

At match play where you either go home or play your next match, I think you have to take more risks on certain holes.

Still, match or medal, playing to the center of # 1 makes the most sense unless your opponent has hit it to 2 feet, then you have to get more aggressive.

PV is a great course for match play because your opponent's play can have more influence over your play than at most other courses

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I suppose that's why golf is just so interesting and so variable strategically. You may try to play match play one way and I may go about it another way, particularly at Pine Valley, and we could each be equally successful over the long hall.

The way I basically looked at match play was a sort of percentage deal. I knew what I could do on a course if I played decent and that's all I really tried to do. I didn't much get out of that in match play. I also knew I had an unusually narrow scoring band over the long haul (never very low and never very high).

So that's the way I went about it in match play; I never really played off my opponent. Of course if I was getting stomped on because my opponent was playing lights out then I knew I had to adjust and get more aggressive at some point before it got too late and that was always hard to do for me or even hard to decide when to start doing it because I never really got used to playing golf that way, at least not in my long game.

Sometimes I did try a lot of really aggressive shots when I was praticing but I never really liked to try it in competition except with my short game. I was one of the first guys around who really perfected the ultra flop shot around the green. I had a 60 degree Ping wedge way back into the 1980s and I had a way of hitting it around the green where it felt like the ball might even hit my chin. I could even take a full swing and hit the ball about four or five yards or less. So with that kind of short game I never felt the need to get too aggressive with the long game and approaching because I felt if a missed the green my chances of getting up and down anyway were pretty good.

[archie_struthers]

 

Always like to see Pat Gertner on board, though he's very modest re: his knowledge of PVGC.


I'm certainly willing to opine on any of the greens, having seen them many many times over the last thirty five years .  Can embrace Tom Paul's qualifying day strategy on número uno , as the left right or long can be quite dangerous to the medal score.  There's a lot more grass there now than twenty five years ago, so it's not quite as scary!  The green , however is quite a bit harder than Pat Mucci might lead you to believe, as speed from front to back can get very frightening.  The green is quite long , so three putts are common .

The original eight green is far superior to the new one, but the size mandated a relief valve over a long hot summer. Most times the right green is not used in tournament play.  It's not as good an option for daily play as the right green on nine, which isn't near as good as the left either.  Many of the caddies feel that nine left is the finest green on the course, with multiple pin options and great subtlety in design and difficulty. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pat
In my opinion all of those barely near misses, were misses to the wrong target.
I consider aiming at the wrong target a bad shot.

But, you don't know where he was aiming

I also think the wrong type of shot, like too much spin, is a bad shot if they wind up off the green.

Mike,

Too much spin ?
Do you really think that amateurs can control, with a high degree of consistency, the degree of spin ?

If we could execute better, we wouldn't be playing with our friends, we'd be on the PGA TOUR

Pat
I do know where he was aiming - the wrong spot
If his ball went off the green he was aiming in the wrong spot

Regarding spin, I think you are just trying to change the subject. 

It is impossible to make a triple bogey without hitting a bad shot
The definition of a bad shot is one that leads to a triple bogey

Cheers

[Tim Martin]

Pat
In my opinion all of those barely near misses, were misses to the wrong target.
I consider aiming at the wrong target a bad shot.

But, you don't know where he was aiming

I also think the wrong type of shot, like too much spin, is a bad shot if they wind up off the green.

Mike,

Too much spin ?
Do you really think that amateurs can control, with a high degree of consistency, the degree of spin ?

If we could execute better, we wouldn't be playing with our friends, we'd be on the PGA TOUR

Pat
I do know where he was aiming - the wrong spot
If his ball went off the green he was aiming in the wrong spot

Regarding spin, I think you are just trying to change the subject.  

It is impossible to make a triple bogey without hitting a bad shot
The definition of a bad shot is one that leads to a triple bogey

Cheers

This should be good. And Mike just so you know that when Pat attempts to rebut your argument and he will, the guy that hit the great shot made a quadruple bogey and not a triple. He will try to dazzle you with plenty of superfluous references and wear you down with tales of rivalries, accomplishments and general misdirection. After you digest it and weigh all the evidence it pretty much comes down to the fact that the guy hit a bad approach that resulted in an 8.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Nuzzo,

The ball doesn't always end up where we intend or think we're aiming it.
You only know where the ball landed, you don't know where he was aimed.

But, you can make a big number, a triple or higher and not hit a bad shot.

Do you remember Watson at the British Open, bogeying the last hole.
That was a good shot, bad bounce that resulted in him losing the tournament.

I don't remember the fellows name, but, a few weeks ago, on the final hole of a PGA Tour event, he hit a perfect iron into a par 5 green, slightly above the flag, only to have it spin, way back, off the green and down the bank into the fronting water.

He doubled or tripled the hole and lost the tournament.

To his credit, he won a subsequent tournament.

You don't have to hit a bad shot to garner a high score, a bad bounce can easily derail your efforts.

Years ago I was playing a match and came to the 7th hole, where the flag was in the front of the green.
I decided that it was best to land my approach short of the green and let the ball feed to the flag.
I executed a PERFECT shot.
Only problem, a sprinkler cap just short of the green.
My ball hit it, bounded sharply left into an unplayable lie.
I took relief, but couldn't aim at the flag, I had to hit short of the green, which I did, chipped up and two putted, for a triple, and I didn't hit a bad shot, in fact, I hit my first two shots perfectly.

Sometimes bad things happen to good golfers.

[David_Elvins]

I executed a PERFECT shot.
Only problem, a sprinkler cap just short of the green.
My ball hit it, bounded sharply left into an unplayable lie.

Pat,

 If it was PERFECT execution then you should not have aimed for the sprinkler cap.  You have played enough golf to know that you can get very unpredictable bounces off sprinkler caps, and you should have aimed either left or right of the sprinkler cap.  

[Will Lozier]

Mike Nuzzo,

The ball doesn't always end up where we intend or think we're aiming it.
You only know where the ball landed, you don't know where he was aimed.

But, you can make a big number, a triple or higher and not hit a bad shot.

Do you remember Watson at the British Open, bogeying the last hole.
That was a good shot, bad bounce that resulted in him losing the tournament.

I don't remember the fellows name, but, a few weeks ago, on the final hole of a PGA Tour event, he hit a perfect iron into a par 5 green, slightly above the flag, only to have it spin, way back, off the green and down the bank into the fronting water.

He doubled or tripled the hole and lost the tournament.

To his credit, he won a subsequent tournament.

You don't have to hit a bad shot to garner a high score, a bad bounce can easily derail your efforts.

Years ago I was playing a match and came to the 7th hole, where the flag was in the front of the green.
I decided that it was best to land my approach short of the green and let the ball feed to the flag.
I executed a PERFECT shot.
Only problem, a sprinkler cap just short of the green.
My ball hit it, bounded sharply left into an unplayable lie.
I took relief, but couldn't aim at the flag, I had to hit short of the green, which I did, chipped up and two putted, for a triple, and I didn't hit a bad shot, in fact, I hit my first two shots perfectly.

Patrick,  

You are referring to Kyle Stanley's hard SW which he landed a full 25 feet past the pin and spun back in the water on the last hole at Torrey.  How you can continue to call shots with DISASTROUS results PERFECT is simply mind-boggling.  A GREAT SHOT with a 3-shot lead would have been a 3/4 gap wedge to take the spin off LEAVING the ball 25 feet past the pin NOWHERE NEAR THE WATER.

The ONLY WAY HE COULD LOSE THE GOLF TOURNAMENT WAS TO DO WHAT HE DID - by definition, A POOR SHOT.  

Perhaps he should have putted around the pond?  That way, he could have avoided the minimum standard, a suggestion I might have made had I been on his bag!  

Sometimes good golfers make poor decisions...or simply fail to execute to the level necessary.  

And...Watson DID get a harsh bounce...then hit a TERRIBLE putt.

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

I executed a PERFECT shot.
Only problem, a sprinkler cap just short of the green.
My ball hit it, bounded sharply left into an unplayable lie.

Pat,

 If it was PERFECT execution then you should not have aimed for the sprinkler cap.  You have played enough golf to know that you can get very unpredictable bounces off sprinkler caps, and you should have aimed either left or right of the sprinkler cap.  

David,

I never saw it.

It was sunk about an inch or two below the surface.

I was shocked when the ball careened sharply left.

You have to wonder why a sprinkler head would be introduced directly in front of the green.

In a humorous vein, I always disliked the golf course, and when I would hit decent shots with bad results, I'd just shrug my shoulders and say, "well, that's GB for you". This time my words were a little more critical.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Nuzzo,

The ball doesn't always end up where we intend or think we're aiming it.
You only know where the ball landed, you don't know where he was aimed.

But, you can make a big number, a triple or higher and not hit a bad shot.

Do you remember Watson at the British Open, bogeying the last hole.
That was a good shot, bad bounce that resulted in him losing the tournament.

I don't remember the fellows name, but, a few weeks ago, on the final hole of a PGA Tour event, he hit a perfect iron into a par 5 green, slightly above the flag, only to have it spin, way back, off the green and down the bank into the fronting water.

He doubled or tripled the hole and lost the tournament.

To his credit, he won a subsequent tournament.

You don't have to hit a bad shot to garner a high score, a bad bounce can easily derail your efforts.

Years ago I was playing a match and came to the 7th hole, where the flag was in the front of the green.
I decided that it was best to land my approach short of the green and let the ball feed to the flag.
I executed a PERFECT shot.
Only problem, a sprinkler cap just short of the green.
My ball hit it, bounded sharply left into an unplayable lie.
I took relief, but couldn't aim at the flag, I had to hit short of the green, which I did, chipped up and two putted, for a triple, and I didn't hit a bad shot, in fact, I hit my first two shots perfectly.

Patrick,  

You are referring to Kyle Stanley's hard SW which he landed a full 25 feet past the pin and spun back in the water on the last hole at Torrey.  [/

How you can continue to call shots with DISASTROUS results PERFECT is simply mind-boggling.  

Based on your previous posts, I can understand your ignorance on this subject.

Have you not seen perfect shots from 120, 140, 160, 180, 200 and longer hit the flagstick and careen off the green into an adjacent bunker or water hazard ?

Perfect shot, disastrous results !

Bob Rittberger, the head Pro at GCGC was playing the final hole in the US Open Qualifier.
Hole cut in the front of the green.  He hits a perfect approach shot 15 feet short of the flag.  It hits a sprinkler cap on the front of the green and careens over the green into an horrendous lie.  He bogies the hole and misses qualifying by one shot.
His approach shot was perfect, contact wise, flight, trajectory and distance, but, the results were disastrous.

So, before you chime in with your opinion, do something you haven't done yet...........think      

A GREAT SHOT with a 3-shot lead would have been a 3/4 gap wedge to take the spin off LEAVING the ball 25 feet past the pin NOWHERE NEAR THE WATER.

He's a PGA TOUR PRO, exponentially better than you.  He knows how to think and play in competition at the highest level.
He hit his approach shot well past the hole to take the water out of play.  To state that a 3/4 gap wedge would be devoid of spin is absurd.

He got a bad break,pure and simple

The ONLY WAY HE COULD LOSE THE GOLF TOURNAMENT WAS TO DO WHAT HE DID - by definition, A POOR SHOT.
There were many ways he could have lost that tournament, but hitting his approach 25 feet past the hole haft be one of the unluckiest.
He didn't hit a poor shot, he hit a great shot with unexpected and unlucky results

Perhaps he should have putted around the pond?  That way, he could have avoided the minimum standard, a suggestion I might have made had I been on his bag!  . [/color]

That's the reason you weren't on the bag

Sometimes good golfers make poor decisions...or simply fail to execute to the level necessary.  

That was just bad luck, like Watson's approach at the British Open.

And...Watson DID get a harsh bounce...then hit a TERRIBLE putt.


I'll bet you, that if Cink knew he needed that putt to win the Britsh Open that he wouldn't have come close to making it.
That was another element of Watson's bad luck that day
[/size]

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pat
Our approaches are sprinkler free!
With only 1/2 as many too!!
You can't make a triple without hitting a bad shot on a well designed golf course. 
Cheers

[Brett_Morrissy]

any chance this could get back on topic?
OR
Scott, can you move this thread somewhere else so these guys can waffle on about the skills of golfers hitting poor perfect shots!

[archie_struthers]

 


I was thinking of an exercise in rating the difficulty of Pine Valley's greens, but lists tend to be quite boring. Suffice it to say that under tournament conditions #2 would be the hardest and 14 the easiest to putt.  The back pins on two are particularly vexing to two putt.  Obviously where your approach ends up enters into the equation.

What strikes me most about the architecture is how the greens match the hole and shot required , whether it be #12 and the pitch and run or #11 , which just sits perfectly in the hill.  Crump and his collaborators truly got it right !

[Michael Whitaker]

I'm struck by how crowded with trees the course looks in these pictures!

[Scott Warren]

Brett,

I'm as disappointed as you are that the thread has been so painfully hijacked. Though there is some interesting detail about why the 1st green works so well hidden amongst the one-upmanship.

Mike,

The hole corridors have undoubtedly narrowed since the course was built, but it's still plenty wide. The scale is so great that the pictures definitely make some holes look far narrower than they are.

Archie,

Could you talk us though the 2nd green a little? Toughest and easiest pins? Best misses for each?

A few more pics of the 2nd green.

Approach:


From the left:


From the right:


From above:

[Michael Taylor]

That picture from above doesn't look promising Scott! How hard is that!?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Are the greens bent or Poa ?

[archie_struthers]

 



Glad to chime in on #2 Scott.  Your graphics are awesome, dig the contour lines.  

As fast as the green can be at the front pins on the back humps are the most difficult .  With the front pins you can use the hills to brake the putts by playing big breaks .  As scary as they are at first blush you can two putt them with sufficient skill.  

When the pins are on either the left plateau or the spine back right it's quite difficult to get a putt that is easy to lag. You can't be behind either location, as there is no slope to play into to reduce speed.  If you play to the center of the green, you have to exert a lot of force to the putt, as they are severely uphill/side hill.  If you play it high and safe , it might not trickle down , if you miss low you get a five to seven footer.  Unlike the downhillers to the front pins, you must be perfect with both line and speed.  

The most infamous pin position was front right on #3 in the toughest Crump Qualifier ever , I believe the year was 1981.  It was almost unplayable.you had to hit it three or four feet past and make the knee knocker from ther . If you missed , it's in the bunker.

In the  caddy tournament that year the pin  on #2 was on top of the hill as far right as you can go. In Scott's second picture this page you see one of the caddies walking off the green right where the pin was, although the pictures don't reflect how nasty it is, lol!  Our friendly superintendent Dick Bator just enjoyed the hell out of us struggling with the set-up that day.  

The greens are a mix of poa and bent, and morph with the summer heat .

[TEPaul]

Scott:

Would you like to know something about the architectural evolution of some of the greens at Pine Valley?

Where should I start?

With #1?

[jonathan_becker]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the green on #2 been slightly altered since Scott's visit in 2010?

[Stephen Davis]

Scott,

Thanks for getting this back on track. It has been very interesting reading (outside of the OT discussion of what constitutes a good shot).

Archie,

Thanks for the information!!!

[archie_struthers]

 

TEP.     I would like to know the genesis in order of their construction , if possible. Thanks !