16th at Muirfield Village

[Paul Jones]

Is this green suppose to soften over the years? Jack was surprised to hear that it was playing so tough.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Apparently it's not difficult enough - TW

What a shot.

[Steve_Lovett]

It looks almost like a dead-ringer for the 16th at Augusta National.....  Would you say it's a Replica?  A Template?

[mike_beene]

The 12 and 16 seem pretty close to the same holes at Augusta

[Matt Kardash]

I really don't know why Jack felt the need to blow up the 16th to put a run of the mill water par 3 hole that has been seen a million times before. I don't think the 16th before was considered a bad hole or anything. It's not like Muirfield Village needed more water. I just counted and I believe water now comes into play on a full 18 shots. I don't think at 17 shots it was sorely lacking another water feature to contend with!

[Wade Whitehead]

12 and 16 are obvious homage to AGNC.

Does this take away or add to the quality of MV?

WW

[Paul Jones]

Does anyone have pictures of the old 16th?  I am just surprised to see how hard that holes is playing and it does not sound like that is what Jack wanted.  He said he wanted to reward a good shot, but with so few birdies I did not see that.  That is why I was asking if the green is suppose to soften up over the years?

[Matt Kardash]

12 and 16 are obvious homage to AGNC.

Does this take away or add to the quality of MV?

WW

Well, it adds in the sense that I feel like the 12th at MV is a good hole that looks like it belongs on the course. I don't think the 16th is a welcomed addition. it just doesn't look like it should be there to me. Plus I really don't see the 16th at Augusta to be a hole worthy of emulation. It doesn't do anything for me.

[Sam Morrow]

I'm watching the replay and a quick glance of the left side of 11 fairway kind of reminded me of 13 at Augusta.

[BHoover]

12 and 16 are obvious homage to AGNC.

Does this take away or add to the quality of MV?

WW

Well, it adds in the sense that I feel like the 12th at MV is a good hole that looks like it belongs on the course. I don't think the 16th is a welcomed addition. it just doesn't look like it should be there to me. Plus I really don't see the 16th at Augusta to be a hole worthy of emulation. It doesn't do anything for me.

I think Jack may not share the same opinion. I don't really have a problem with the hole...and it's his course, which means he gets to do what he wants. Also, I have a feelin that Tiger's chip today may mean that hole stays as is.

[Steve_Lovett]

It looks like Jack built almost an identical replica of the 16th at Augusta. The way the water comes into play at the green, locations of bunkers - even the slopes on the green are just like at Augusta. It's pretty much a rip-off and I'm not a fan.

Interesting that two of Tiger Woods' most memorable hole-outs from off the green occurred at each of these 16th holes. I couldn't help but recognize the similiarities.

The 12th at Muirfield Village is no doubt inspired by the 12th at Augusta but it doesn't look like an exact replica.

As far as the greens, the new-ness is probably to credit for the firmness. It also looks like the 16th is now much more exposed to the wind than it used to be - lending to the difficulty of the shot and the fact that the green might dry out and be firmer.

[Matthew Essig]

The hole is just too long to play as is. Only about 10 of the 71 players hit the green.    If Jack is ever going to fix the hole, he won't fix it until after the President's Cup. He needs to turn the green so the water is along the left side; however, that makes 3 of the 4 par 3's hourglass/rectangular greens where the green is much longer than it is wide (4, 8, 16). Or he could shorten the hole so players can stop the ball like on 12. It wouldn't hurt to do both. 

[Matthew Rose]

Nothing's gonna change at 16 now, not after that happened.

I thought they probably had to do something at 16 just because the old hole was kind of boring.... I don't even remember much about  the old hole except that it was about the same length and had kind of a shallow green that didn't hold.

I agree that the new hole looks strange though.... perhaps if there were some trees around it it might fit in better, but it looks so obviously added in right now.

If Jack wanted water there, you know what would have been cool is if he'd run one of those nice streams with all the little dams and waterfalls like you see along some of the holes on the front side, like 2, 3, 5, 9.... you could have built a similar hole but had a gentle babbling brook run along the left of the green instead of the pond, which looks like a hole in the ground. Even the lake on #12 looks more natural than that one does.

I don't think it really resembles #16 at Augusta very much though.... that hole has a bunker between the green and the lake and makes the water much less of a factor IMO. I don't think I've ever seen anybody leading the Masters ever rinse a shot there to lose it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is there a "minimum standard" carry on that tee shot or do golfers putt along the walking path per Will Lozier's strategy ?

[Mike Hendren]

We can debate whether Muirfield Village is a "great" course. 

In my opinion, less debatable is the fact that it is a "great professional tournament" course, primarily through the use of strategic fairway bunkering, water and trees.  Jack got what he wanted - no small feat for an architect.

Bogey

[Sam Morrow]

We can debate whether Muirfield Village is a "great" course. 

In my opinion, less debatable is the fact that it is a "great professional tournament" course, primarily through the use of strategic fairway bunkering, water and trees.  Jack got what he wanted - no small feat for an architect.

Bogey

I agree, I think often times we forget that is the goal for these tour courses.

[Bill_McBride]

You have to wonder what it's like being a member of a course that's made more difficult every year.  I'm not just talking about adding longer back tees. 

[Sam Morrow]

You have to wonder what it's like being a member of a course that's made more difficult every year.  I'm not just talking about adding longer back tees. 

I COULD make an age joke there but I won't.

[Paul Jones]

I am not disagreeing that the course was designed for the tournament and setup accordingly. I was just surprised that 16th didn't turn out the way Jack wanted.  He even went into detail on how he envisioned the hole to play out for the tournament and President Cup coming up. 

[Tom Ferrell]

I heard Jack talking about it, but I'd say it turned out just the way he wanted, although he didn't exactly know he wanted it.  He wanted a hole that would produce dramatic situations on Sunday.  It did just that, and Tiger Woods' miracle shot validated its premise.  Great hole by any real design standard?  Absolutely not.  Etched into Memorial Tournament fame and destined to go structurally unchanged for many, may years?  Most certainly.

In those terms, I would compare it more to the 15th at ANGC, a hole I believe to be far inferior - strategically, at least - to the 13th.  The only real decision is to go for the green or not, provided you've hit a decent drive.  The shaved front is a little hokey, if you ask me, and pretty darn penal for the guy who lays up (fair enough).  But the hole became a legend when Gene Sarazen made his deuce.  Therefore, validated as a great part of the Masters.

And that's what we saw yesterday. 

[Will Lozier]

Is there a "minimum standard" carry on that tee shot or do golfers putt along the walking path per Will Lozier's strategy ?

Pat,

Grab your magnifying glass and pull up MV on Google Earth.  I'm assuming you've never been there, played the course, or caddied on it?  Anyway, even you could make a 5 quite easily with a wedge and a putter - even without a walking path!  And, the body of water in front of Jack's new #16...that IS a pond.  Unlike Rae's Creek on #12 at ANGC.  Of course, I'd love to hear others weigh in on that claim.

Sam,

#11 at MV is a really original hole - different from ANGC's #13 in that the stream crosses twice and runs along each side of the hole in sections.  The tee shot also does not require the same shape shot nor is the risk-reward as severe.  I did argue that the new #16 was an homage to ANGC (as is #12 originally) on a MV thread last year and had some disagree.  I am not a fan as I thought the old #16 was one of the more natural holes he designed there - from high point to high point over a natural depression.  As much excitement as TW's shot provided yesterday, I was there in '91 on #17 when we heard the roar of K. Perry's ace during the second round of his win.

http://www.mtmoments.com/all.php  

Cheers

[JLahrman]

I didn't understand Nicklaus to say that he didn't like the hole. I thought he said that where they put the hole yesterday made the hole too difficult with a left-to-right wind.

I haven't played MV. But from watching the tournament, holes 10-15 look to be interesting holes that are fun to watch. 16 and 17 seemed boring in comparison.

[JLahrman]

Is there a "minimum standard" carry on that tee shot or do golfers putt along the walking path per Will Lozier's strategy ?

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/playerschamp08/columns/story?columnist=sobel_jason&id=3385374

[Will Lozier]

Is there a "minimum standard" carry on that tee shot or do golfers putt along the walking path per Will Lozier's strategy ?

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/playerschamp08/columns/story?columnist=sobel_jason&id=3385374

THAT...is a MINIMUM STANDARD!

Cheers JLahrman

[JLahrman]

Well I don't want to get this thread off topic.

Nor do I want to get involved in the minimum standard argument...or any other thread that is making the discussions on "Real Housewives of Atlanta" look mature (and there are several guilty threads right now).

But I can't read your arguments with Pat without thinking of the plight of Mr. Spagnolo. I can't believe that you hadn't heard about it, I figured that's where you drew your inspiration.

Nice video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_3G8_VNfPw