[JNC Lyon]

Oak Hill East did the deed back in 1979...what else of major importance has been done since, other than augmentation?

Medinah, Oakland Hills, Augusta, Pebble...who doesn't have a bit of surgery from time to time?

Trent Jones did work in the 1950s.  The club added a homemade par three for the 1968 Open, then took it out of commission during the Fazio re-do.  Craig Shreiner redid the bunkers in the mid-1990s.  Fazio's group redid all of the bunkers a few years later.  Marzloff built three new greens last year.  Not mention the thousands of tree plantings.  It's hard to call the East Course a Donald Ross layout now.

[Joel_Stewart]

Tinkering is not always a bad thing.  Surprisingly for some, changes can be positive.   

Tinkering is the operative word?   Maybe Ted should define "tinkered".  Medinah, Oakland Hills and Augusta have been completely rebuilt not tinkered.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Here is a comparo of Muirfield Village aerials 1980 v 2012:

http://golfcoursehistories.com/MVGC.html

I couldn't get a higher res 1980.

[Mark_F]

NSW, The Lakes and Huntingdale.

[Nigel Islam]

Bay Hill would have to be on the list.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark, courtesy of Neil Crafter here is NSW 1943 v 2012:

http://golfcoursehistories.com/NSW.html

What changes of note?

[Mark_F]

Mark, courtesy of Neil Crafter here is NSW 1943 v 2012:

http://golfcoursehistories.com/NSW.html

What changes of note?

Mark,

I am far from a NSW scholar, but the second green was altered, the third and fourth greens have also been redone recently, as well as alterations to the fourth fairway, there were changes to the 18th a couple of years ago, the pot bunkers, and the waste areas added to five, eight, nine, ten at least.

There is one GCA poster who has been playing NSW for around 30 years and would know far more, but he is probably suffering a sugar high from overindulging in the Microsoft Kool-Aid.

[Sean Leary]

Is adding tees tinkering? I say no.

[Sam Morrow]

Bay Hill would have to be on the list.

Is it really a championship venue?

[Matt_Cohn]

Minor quibble but I wouldn't say Torrey Pines has been tinkered with. It was redesigned once, and other than that hardly changed ever.

[Nigel Islam]

Bay Hill would have to be on the list.

Is it really a championship venue?

Well, the premise of the post was regarding Muirfield Village. As a championship venue, The Memorial and Bay Hill Invitational are on the same level even if the courses are not.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Alex,

How is Baltusrol different from it's form 10, 20,30 and 40 years ago ?

A hole by hole description would help.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ted,

It depends upon how you define "tinkering."

I don't consider adding length "tinkering".

[Mark_F]

Ted,

It depends upon how you define "tinkering."

I don't consider adding length "tinkering".

Surely that depends upon the types of holes where length is added, Patrick.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

The Lakes is completely different from the course that held the 1964 Australian Open - and whilst the 1970 routing is intact is been through a lot since.
Royal Queensland went through the same complete rebuilding exercise as The Lakes for the same reason - a road/freeway/bridge bisecting the course.
Metropolitan also - they lost most of the back 9 in 1960.
And The Australian has undergone huge changes - and start the process again on Monday.

None of those jobs were tinkering - it was much more than that.

[Mark_F]

Mark,
The Lakes is completely different from the course that held the 1964 Australian Open - and whilst the 1970 routing is intact is been through a lot since.

Mike,
I realise that - but before you got to it, NGS and TWP had fiddled with it during various times, had they not?

Metropolitan also - they lost most of the back 9 in 1960.
And The Australian has undergone huge changes - and start the process again on Monday.

None of those jobs were tinkering - it was much more than that.

I never mentioned Metro or The Aus. Metro obviously had the 1960 changes forced upon them, but the course has been tinkered with since, surely?  The new TWP tees, the double decker mound across 18, a few TWP (and others)bunkers, 6th green, 12th and 14th holes.

Who is during the work at The Aus?  Did they fall for the Nicklaus con?

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

NGS and TWP both worked at The Lakes.
Nicklaus Design are doing The Australian - with the Fleming's building. They built most of Bob Harrison's work in Australia.

[Rich Goodale]

Shinnecock and Muirfield.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Shinnecock and Muirfield.

Very funny and very true. I'd confirm this but am having trouble finding 1894 aerials.

[Rich Goodale]

Shinnecock and Muirfield.

Very funny and very true. I'd confirm this but am having trouble finding 1894 aerials.

Check out the Montgolfier Archives.  I think Melvyn has access to them.....

[Joey Chase]

Nobody has mentioned all of the changes that have gone on at Sandwich.  If they hadn't made the changes the Open would've never returned.  If they hadn't, would that no longer make it a championship venue?  I know it seems to be answering itself, but does a course have to continue to host events to be considered a championship course? 

[Niall C]

It would probably be easier to find the least tinkered with championship venues.

Least tinkered with could be Muirfield, Troon or Royal Lytham & St Annes.

Pete

I would guess that all the (British) Open rota courses have had a lot more changes than their American counterparts with the exception of Princes, which is quite young, and Prestwick, which has been in a time warp since 1925 and even then had plenty of changes before. The reasons probably to do with the age of the courses but also the nature of the terrain with links land maybe allowing more easily for re-arrangements of the course.

Taking Muirfield as an example, laid out in 1892 (from memory) by Old Tom it was constantly tweaked and re-arranged by Robert Maxwell and the like well before Colt redesigned the course in the 20's. On top of that there was the major changes by Simpson in the 1930's and who knows how much tweaking since, with this years lengthening of the 10th (?) by taking in land from the Renaissance club.

Also bear in mind that any course on the Open rota gets the R&A treatment with Peter Dawson of the R&A recently saying they have spent £4.5 million in recent years in total on all the Open venues.

Niall

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I was staying (although not playing) with a Royal Troon member last night and he tells me that they've put in a new championship tee on the 15th more or less back as far as level with the 14th tee. The hole will now play as a 499-yard par 4. They've also put on a new fairway bunker relevant to that tee. Apparently they are also going to continue the ridges on the right of the 4th (par 5) and 12th (par 4) beyond the greens. I don't understand this and can't quite envisage it, but it is apparently so.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark, this thread could be renamed 'Insanity.'

Meanwhile, here are aerials of Baltusrol comparing:
1930 v 2012
1954 v 2012
1930 v 1954

http://golfcoursehistories.com/Baltusrol.html

Which one is the Lower and which the Upper? Anyone have a routing?

[Mark Steffey]

Mark, this thread could be renamed 'Insanity.'

Meanwhile, here are aerials of Baltusrol comparing:
1930 v 2012
1954 v 2012
1930 v 1954

http://golfcoursehistories.com/Baltusrol.html

Which one is the Lower and which the Upper? Anyone have a routing?

#1 on the lower is the uppermost hole moving left to right.
#1 of the upper is coming to the bottom from the parking lot on the left.

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