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Jeff_Brauer

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David,

Not to harp, but after a break, doing real work, and thinking about it, what would be the standard you propose for crediting it as a CBM design?

CBM wrote the he consulted and hundreds of clubs in those days, and took credit for design on dozens.

MCC wrote that he provided valuable advice (i.e., consulted) and that in the whole, they did the work (including design credit for HW)

If the two main participants felt that way, what then current standard do we use to "over rule" them?  Are there direct comparitive examples, especially if my modern perspective is to be discounted? 

You say my perspective doesn't "necessarily apply?  Why not?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff,
I'll just assume your "Oi Veh!" is directed at TEPaul and his unreasonable reaction to your attempts to have a reasonable conversation.

To back up for a minute, when I say that Merion attempted to build a CBM course, I mean they attempted to build a course in the strategic style that CBM followed, using the underlying principles he used at NGLA.  I didn't mean to imply that CBM ought to solely be credited with the design.  I have never said that.   Some collaborative credit would seem most appropriate to me, but again my main concern is getting to try and get to the bottom of what actually happened.

1. As for your count of Hugh Wilson's days, you seem to have much more lenient standards of what documented involvement means when it comes to Wlson. For example you assume "he had to have been around" during the initial attempts lay out the course mentioned in the Minutes, but there is NO DOCUMENTATION THAT HE WAS.  For all we know this could have been referring to attempts to apply Baker's plans and incorporate CBM's early comments, and it all could have taken place before Wilson was even on the committee.  In other words, it is not "documented" at all.  Same goes for your claim that he was involved in laying out the five plans upon the return to Merion. Where is the documentation for that one?  You just assume he must have been involved because it makes sense to you, but I don't think you can "document" it, can you?   In contrast, you won't even allow that CBM was in contact with Wilson despite that Wilson documented that he had spoken to CBM about Piper?  Really?
   In short, you have two standards, one requiring rigorous documentation for CBM's involvement, and one requiring no direct documentation and quite a lot of speculation for Wilson. Want to try again using the same standard for both?  I'll let you choose the standard.  

2.  You are assuming that after returning from NGLA they "drew" up five plans.  That isn't what Lesley said.   He said, "On our return, we rearranged the course and laid out five different plans." Perhaps they came back from NGLA with the plan(s) and were trying to make them work on the land at NGLA?  It says nothing about "drawing" anything, does it?  It is very confusing language.  I keep waffling mind about what it might mean exactly, except that they had obviously rearranged the design at NGLA.   Do we at least agree on that?

3.  You treat the NGLA meeting as if it had nothing to do with planning NGLA, as if they were there specifically to find out about holes abroad. This is refuted by the documentation.  Alan Wilson acknowledges that they were working on the layout plan at NGLA as does Hugh Wilson himself.

4.  As for what "CBM's plans" meant, first let me make clear that it doesn't matter.  We know, whether or not it was "CBM's plans" for Merion, that they were working on ideas for the layout of Merion while at NGLA.   Alan and Hugh both tell us this.  So I DONT need you to accept my reading of the word "CBM's plans" for you to accept my overall position.   Second, it is impossible to say for sure what "CBM's plans" meant,  but my reading is as at least as plausible as yours.  Your reading makes it redundant.  I don't think CBM brought actual plans back from abroad, I think he brought survey data.   But honestly it is impossible to know whether it refers to Merion's plans, yet many seem sure that it couldn't possibly be.  Naturally.

5. Why don't we leave Richard Francis out if this for now?

6. I've seen no letter where HW set up the meeting.  But there must have been some contact to set up the meeting.  Let me guess, that counts as involvement for Wilson yet somehow not for CBM?  

7. I've stayed away from 100 anniversary posts so as to not stir the pot.   TEPaul knows no such restraint.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 09:00:41 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

Not to harp, but after a break, doing real work, and thinking about it, what would be the standard you propose for crediting it as a CBM design?

Not sure what you mean?  I've never gotten into scorecard credit.  But it looks like to me the original design was most likely a collaboration between CBM/HJW and Wilson's Committee.  Hard to say what if any of Barker's routing they used, but they may well have used some.

My standard is a reasonable determination of the creative driving forces behind the design.

Quote
CBM wrote the he consulted and hundreds of clubs in those days, and took credit for design on dozens.

I don't think he wrote this, although it was written about him.  I don't even know that he "took credit on dozens," but he surely deserved credit for quite a few, including some for which did not take credit.  His redesign of Shinnecock Hills is a good example.   CBM never took credit for any course where he wasn't directly involved in laying out and constructing the golf course on the ground.  His involvement at Merion was limited to the planning stage, so I wouldn't have expected him to take credit.  HJW was there too, though, and he lists Merion as among the CBM and/or Raynor courses.   He was in a good position to know about CBM's involvement in the planning.  

Quote
MCC wrote that he provided valuable advice (i.e., consulted) and that in the whole, they did the work (including design credit for HW)

1.  MCC never wrote a thing about "design credit for HW," at least not then. You and others have long said this, but it is just not true.  The minutes don't even mention Wilson as being involved in the planning.   Any notion of design credit for Wilson came much later.  Not even Piper and Oakley credit Wilson with the original design in their remembrance of him!  When Lesley mentions Wilson in 1914 for laying the course out on the ground he also mentions CBM and HJW!
2.  MCC wrote a heck of a lot more than just that CBM "provided valuable advice," and MCC didn't minimize it the way you guys do by suggesting he was a consultant to whom they might or might not have listened. Among other things, MCC wrote that CBM?HJW chose and approved the final routing plan.

Who chooses and approves the final routing plan on your designs?  Your design associate? A consultant?  Or you? Isn't the person who is in charge of the final determination of the design usually called the designer?  

Quote
If the two main participants felt that way, what then current standard do we use to "over rule" them?  Are there direct comparitive examples, especially if my modern perspective is to be discounted?  

You say my perspective doesn't "necessarily apply?  Why not?

This was a transition period in golf course architecture, near the very beginning, and they didn't discuss these things the way they are discussed today.  It was fairly uncommon to have one person primarily responsible for the plan, and someone else responsible for laying out the course.  It was even more complicated because CBM was an amateur and so what else would they call him but an "advisor?"  The didn't talk about these things as we, do but that doesn't  change what happened.

________________________________________________

I have tried to address your questions so hopefully you will address a few of mine:

1.  In your office, what is the person called who determines the final design from among various options?  
2.  What is the person called in your office who approves the final design?  
3   When a plan from your office is submitted to the Board of a Golf Club, and it is submitted as the plan you approved, who is credited as the designer?  
4.  Given Hugh Wilson's approach to dealing with Piper and Oakley, do you really think it reasonable to conclude that he was not taking a similar approach with CBM?
5.  While we are counting days of involvement we ought to ask, whose time do you think was relatively more valuable and important? CBM's and HJW's, or Wilson's and committee?  
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 08:52:49 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Based on what I've read, it must have meant being trapped with arcane word parsers. And a small sect, at that.   ;D
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

TEPaul

"CBM wrote the he consulted and hundreds of clubs in those days, and took credit for design on dozens."


JeffB:

I've seen newspaper accounts and such that have said that about Macdonald but I've read his book about twenty five times and in it he actually doesn't take credit for designing much more than about 12-15. By why believe Macdonald himself if you're fixated on proving some significant course's architectural history, like Merion East's, wrong?   ;)


TEPaul

"To back up for a minute, when I say that Merion attempted to build a CBM course, I mean they attempted to build a course in the strategic style that CBM followed, using the underlying principles he used at NGLA.  I didn't mean to imply that CBM ought to solely be credited with the design.  I have never said that.   Some collaborative credit would seem most appropriate to me, but again my main concern is getting to try and get to the bottom of what actually happened."


David Moriarty:

Of course you have. You've been saying it on here for over four years. You say it in your essay. You said Wilson and his committee had nothing to do with the routing and design or Merion East and that they were only responsible (as the name of their committee seems to connote to you) for constructing the course to CBM and Whigam's plan. You just can't now deny that you said that in your IMO piece and numerous times on this DG.

What are you going to claim next---that even if you said that numerous time on here some of us are misrepresenting you?   ???

Claiming that people on here are misrepresenting you has been your stock defensive fall-back ploy. What is that anyway, some cheap tactic they taught you in first year law school so some dumb juror might actually believe somone didn't just get the better of you?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

Yes, Oi Vey was for TePaul.  I appreciate that we have been civil to each other, and I would prefer it to stay that way.

Reading your last two posts, there is so much that we agree on - namely that the routing was indeed some kind of collaboration between the committee and CBM, I guess I have trouble seeing what the argument is.

I do disagree with a few of your comments, specifically the doulble standard one, because if you can presume CBM was greatly involved between Jan-April (more than the few days documented) because it seems likely to you, but without documentation, it ruffles the feathers a bit to read that I cannot presume Wilson was active in his own damn committee, especially since he was lauded so highly afterwards, even if the exact wording didn't say design.  In fact, it seems, including the word "layout" that design and construction were sometimes lumped into one, and why not?  All the members knew was they were getting a new golf course, and at that time, the two concepts were linked, as they are know, but also lumped together. 

As you know, while I admire your intelligence and analytical abilities, I have just never been confident that all users of the English language - then or now - use it as precisely as you do, which is why some objects have five similar names, and some words/phrases - like layout - have five meanings depending on context.  There is absolutely no certainty when we guess as to what personality type wrote those words back then. 

BTW, I would also prefer NOT to leave Francis out of the discussion.  If we are trying to decide exactly how Merion got routed, his is the only first person account of the process, or at least an important part of it.  It suggests a lot of time spent by the committee (many hours......and he was just "plain talking" to himself, was he?  At least from him, we knew the first 11 holes were "easy" and that the last 5 were hard, requiring the land swap, etc.  I don't see any justification for leaving that out of discussion of how it was routed.

I need to reduce my participation in this thread, due to some deadlines, weekend guests, an upcoming vactaion,  and just some plain common sense, as we are just getting close to old hard feelings TP seems already there) and rehashing the currenlty unknowable.  But, I will probably be reading, and maybe popping in from time to time.  Just cannot get sucked up into this again, fascinating as it may be. 

Cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

You are able to take that passage from Lesley, in a formal Board meeting, to say it's clear CBM was the most influential person in the proces while Tom is able to take the exact same words to mean CBM had only three days of input/contribution to the project.

I think it's ludicrous to think CBM and HJW were only involved those three days. Some correspondence must have happened but if they were coming up with the bulk of the ideas for routing the course and designing the holes he would have been mentioned more AND he would have been more personally invested in the outcome of the project.

Similarly, you've used their approval of the parcel selection as evidence that they chose the land. They were only shown one site after the committee spent months, possibly years, narrowing their search to this one. No, it wasn't a committee for years, but the search had been ongoing individually for that long.

There's alot unknown and I don't agree with much of both sides of this debate.

Similarly, Tom likes to fall back on the comment that he's only stating what can be proven by the records. The records only mention CBM twice covering three interactions. This must underplay his contribution significantly based on several things, not the least of which being the several template holes the committee attempted.

TEPaul

JeffB:

Why do you say I am getting near old hard feelings? All I am trying to do is explain what I think the differences are between Moriarty's version of Merion's architectural history and the version I believe in and support which happens to be Merion GC's version (I do not need to address again Moriarty's contention that I am trying to speak FOR Merion GC here because I have told him numerous times that I am not doing that and never have. All I am doing is explaining on here what Merion's version is. I say that merely because I speak with them all the time on this specific subject (like yesterday) of their version of their entire architectural history and its story as presented at any time by them). Frankly, if Moriarty or anyone else doubts this they should simply get in touch with Merion GC itself and discuss it with them; something, I might add, I do not think either Moriarty or MacWood have ever bothered to do in all these years of their arguing over Merion's architectural history on here. What does that tell you?

On that note, I think it would be entirely appropriate to shift this entire discussion to only the version of Merion's history that is contained in Desmond Tolhurst's 1989 Merion history book (Golf at Merion, first edition 1989, second edition 2005) because the fact is that is the only Merion history or history book that David Moriarty refers to in his 2008 IMO piece. The fact is that is not only the only book (or report) from Merion itself in which this mistaken story of a 1910 Hugh Wilson trip abroad, and for seven months, occured and what that might have meant for Wilson, but it happens to be the FIRST book or report from Merion itself when that story of a 1910 trip abroad occured.

Being as interested in history as you are, I hope you can completely appreciate what that may mean----eg that story may have no bearing at all on any reports or contemporaneous documents or facts THAT CAME BEFORE IT (the premise being time does not operate backwards!  ;)-----like for the preceding SEVENTY FIVE YEARS before it! It is probably entirely appropriate to do this since Moriarty does base almost his entire argument and conclusion that Wilson did not route and design Merion East on the fact that he did not go abroad in 1910 to study architecture as that Tolhurst book maintains. He uses the mistake of that story to then make a premise to conclude that Wilson was virtually incapable of routing and designing that golf course because it appears he was a novice if that 1910 trip abroad story is untrue.

In the real world and the real world of golf architecture back then that type of premise and conclusion simply does not necessarily follow! That premise and conclusion is essentially a non-sequitor!

I hope you agree that perhaps the best way to discuss this subject about mistakes in Merion's architectural history should be to focus it only on that Tolhurst Merion history book and what its mistakes really do mean.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 10:21:01 AM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0

I hope you agree that perhaps the best way to discuss this subject about mistakes in Merion's architectural history should be to focus it only on that Tolhurst Merion history book.



I'm not sure I understand this sentence. Are you asking us to agree that the only mistake in Merion's architectural history is the 1910 story before moving forward in the conversation?

I certainly don't know of any other mistakes but this seems like a strange request if I've read you correctly.

TEPaul

"Reading your last two posts, there is so much that we agree on - namely that the routing was indeed some kind of collaboration between the committee and CBM, I guess I have trouble seeing what the argument is."


Jeff:

Is that what you read from Moriarty's last two posts (#151 and #152)?

TEPaul

"Similarly, Tom likes to fall back on the comment that he's only stating what can be proven by the records."


Sully:

Well, to some extent. When you or anyone else mentions "the records" I am only referring to those times it is actually RECORDED that MCC met with Macdonald and Whigam or had direct conversations with them. Anyone can say they must have had many more than those recorded but the fact is, at this point, that is just total speculation.

Those records that show participation between MCC and CBM and Whigam and CBM/Whigam and Wilson et al are very clear. That's is all I'm saying on "the records." Moriarty seems to try to imply (as it appears you do somehow) that it must be a fact that there are more records to that affect. Perhaps there were or even are somewhere but the fact today is no one has ever found them, and frankly no one from the past even implied there were!

Since there are and apparently always have been a dirth of any more records than we now know exist, it may be worthwhile to just consider what Merion has always recorded----eg that they asked Macdonald/Whigam to look at the Ardmore site as a potential golf course and simply did not ask them to get involved in creating a plan (routing and design) themselves! Of course the certainly helped and assisted the Wilson Committee in creating plans (routing and designs) and to me that definitely constitutes architectural collaboration, something MCC and Merion GC have always recorded and never denied!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 10:41:56 AM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
OK...could you tell me about the specific references to Wilson in the pre-construction time frame?

TEPaul

"I'm not sure I understand this sentence. Are you asking us to agree that the only mistake in Merion's architectural history is the 1910 story before moving forward in the conversation?"



Sully:

Of course I am. What do you find hard to understand about that?

If anyone wants to have a discussion of the over-all entire century old architectural history of Merion East that is another matter and another subject and STORY.

All I am concentrating on here is a discussion of David Moriarty's 2008 IMO piece and what he says in it about Merion's architectural history of the time period 1909-1912. He specifically says in the "Scope" section preceding the essay that he is not and will not concentrate on more than that in that essay. Just look at the title of his piece ((1909-1912)) and read it again if you have to (I read the whole thing again this morning and for about the tenth time).*

Essentially the entire thing is based on the fact that the 1910 trip abroad story of Wilson studying architecture BEFORE routing and designing Merion East is what he uses to contend and conclude that Wilson not only did not route and design Merion East but that he was actually incapable of doing it.** For God's Sake, at the very end of his IMO piece he even explains why this entire story began to occur to him in the first place and what caught his interest to eventually write that IMO piece in 2008***


*     But the fact is the very thing he bases most of his premises and conclusions on in that essay that only focuses on 1909-1912 is something that first occured SEVENTY FIVE YEARS LATER----eg the FIRST known mention in Merion's architectural history of a trip abroad by Wilson in 1910 for seven months to study architecture in preparation for routing, designing and constructing Merion East. How can something that first happend seventy five years after an event have any influence on that event seventy five years previous? Alan Wilson did not say that Hugh went abroad in 1910 and for seven months to study architecture BEFORE and in preparation for routing, designing and constructing Merion East. What Alan said in 1926 is simply that all the other members of Wilson's committee told him that in the main Hugh was responsible for the ARCHITECTURE of the East and West courses incuding their DESIGN and CONSTRUCTION! Of course Alan certainly did mention the valuable help and assistance they got in the process from CBM/Whigam but we always knew that and so has Merion. It is certainly possible that Tom MacWood may've thought he was the first to discover that if one reads his thread "RE: Macdonald and Merion?" which he posted in Feb. 2003.


**    Next, I will tell you a few things about Rodman Griscom you may not have known and if Moriarty has known about them previously he has certainly done a pretty good job of avoiding them and the consideration of them with what they may mean for the Wilson Committee routing and designing Merion (even with the help and assistance of CBM/Whigam.


***      "In or around December 2006, Tom Paul wrote about this longstanding Merion rumor on the Golf Club Atlas website. His post increased my skepticism about the timing of Wilson’s study trip abroad, and sparked by further research into the matter. Wayne Morrison, an expert on William Flynn and a member of Merion, recently claimed on golfclubatlas.com that, according to Hugh I. Wilson’s daughter, Wilson actually had a ticket on the Titanic but was detained, and luckily missed the boat."
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 11:17:28 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff, 

I to would like to remain civil, although it isn't easy with TEPaul up to his old tricks again. There is quite a lot we agree upon, and quite a lot that ought be considered beyond dispute, namely that the planning looks to have been a collaborative effort between Merion and CBM/HJW.  I'd go further and say that i also assume we agree that (although CBM appears to have been offering some advice from afar)  after the planning stages CBM's role was greatly diminished and Merion relied more heavily on Wilson

Contrary to the claims of some, I never intended to cut Wilson out of design credit. I repeatedly acknowledged, in my IMO and after, that Wilson and friends were working on the details of the plans with CBM at NGLA, and have always tried to acknowledge that what Wilson did after the final plan was in place was extremely important to the creation of the course.   TEPaul's revisionist effort to pigeonhole my position seem to be more motivated by insecurity and bad blood than at productive conversation.

I am glad to hear you are busy with more important things but I hope you will have a chance to answer my questions above.  Here they are again:
1.  In your office, what is the person called who determines the final design from among various options?   
2.  What is the person called in your office who approves the final design?   
3   When a plan from your office is submitted to the Board of a Golf Club, and it is submitted as the plan you approved, who is credited as the designer? 
4.  Given Hugh Wilson's approach to dealing with Piper and Oakley, do you really think it reasonable to conclude that he was not taking a similar approach with CBM?
5.  While we are counting days of involvement we ought to ask, whose time do you think was relatively more valuable and important? CBM's and HJW's, or Wilson's and committee?


Regarding the issue of a double standard, I fail to follow your position.   So far as I can tell, I am going well beyond the actual contemporaneous records in crediting Wilson with having been involved with the initial design, despite the lack of "documentation" that he had anything to do with it other than meeting at NGLA.  For me it is okay to draw reasonable conclusions  based on the evidence we do have both about Wilson's involvement and about CBM's involvement.   Frankly I think as standards go this is pretty liberal on my part given there is plenty of contemporaneous documentation of CBM's involvement in the initial planning, yet almost none of Wilson's involvement, except for his presence at NGLA with CBM. 

In other words, I am not  claiming that Wilson was NOT involved in the initial planning.  I am just more pointing out that if you applied the standard you use for CBM to Wilson, then I don't see how YOU could argue that Wilson was involved.  Because  as it is you are going well beyond any documentation in your analysis of Wilson.

All I am asking is that you use the same standard for both.  And I am willing to try and do the same.
   - If you insist on only crediting CBM with only what is absolutely documented (your four or five day theory) then please do the same for Wilson.  If we do that, then we have still have four or five days of documented CBM involvement but zero days of Wilson's involvement during the same period (two days if we rely on later documents putting him at NGLA).   Personally I don't think this is accurate on either part -- both were very likely involved more than what was absolutely documented during the time period.  But if you want to be strict in your interpretation then please be consistent when counting days!  Don't make assumptions for one but not the other. 
   - Or if you would prefer to try and make reasonable assumptions based on the little we have about Wilson's involvement, then please do the same for CBM.  For example, then let's not act if we don't know that they were planning at NGLA.  And let's acknowledge that it is extremely likely that Wilson was pestering CBM about the design via the mail, just as he was constantly pestering Oakley about the agronomy issues via the mail.  And let's not act as if CBM didn't have access to the contour map before and at NGLA, especially because we know that CBM had already expressed a need for a contour map!

I don't think there is much reason to further debate the meaning of "to lay out" given we both agree it depends on the context and use.  Plus, in the case of Merion we both know that, according to Merion, they would lay out the course according to the plan approved by CBM and HJW.   It seems pretty clear in that instance, doesn't it?   It is the planning that concerns me, not what came after.


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hi Jim,

You are able to take that passage from Lesley, in a formal Board meeting, to say it's clear CBM was the most influential person in the proces while Tom is able to take the exact same words to mean CBM had only three days of input/contribution to the project.

While that Lesley report is very important, there is a lot more supporting my claim than just this Lesley report. To name a few things, there is, in no particular order:  the previous Lesley report, HJWhigham's statement on the matter; the previous Bd. letters to the members about CBM/HJW's involvement; press clippings emphasizing CBM's involvement in the planning; CBM acting as AWT's source of information about the plan; HWilson's thanks and acknowledgement in his Chapter, AWilson's letter; Lesley's Article; the statements in the press about the course being based on the great holes abroad; Findlay's acknowledgement of CBM's role in creating the layout; the attempt by Merion to build at least CBM's four main templates at the time: the Alps, Redan, Eden, and Road; other CBM "tells" all over the course; etc.   While some won't hear of it, there is also Wilson's lack of experience and CBM's role as leader in the nation for this sort of thing, combined with Wilson's propensity to turn to experts for guidance.  

Quote
I think it's ludicrous to think CBM and HJW were only involved those three days. Some correspondence must have happened but if they were coming up with the bulk of the ideas for routing the course and designing the holes he would have been mentioned more AND he would have been more personally invested in the outcome of the project.

While I agree with the first sentence, the rest are leaps I am not willing to make.  I don't think we are in a position to dictate how he should have behaved once he was finished helping Merion with their plan.   CBM had a lot going on in New York and Long Island, including tweaks to NGLA, the design and construction of Piping Rock and Sleepy Hollow, and he was about ready to embark on other projects as well.  And he was busy with the USGA and his profession.  I think it makes more sense to focus on what he did, than what you expect he should have done later.   And what he did was devote a relatively large amount of time to Merion's planning. He may have spent more time on site at Merion than at some courses considered his own designs!  

Besides, how long do you think it would take CBM to come up with a plan at Merion?  He had already been over the land, and the contour map (the one mentions that he would have needed to determine for certain if he could fit a first class course on the land) had been created.  Do you really think that between the first visit, the creation of the contour map, whatever communication he had with Wilson, the NGLA meetings, and the return visit to Merion, that CBM didn't have enough involvement to come up with a plan?  HH Barker came up with a rough plan in a single day!    

Quote
Similarly, you've used their approval of the parcel selection as evidence that they chose the land. They were only shown one site after the committee spent months, possibly years, narrowing their search to this one. No, it wasn't a committee for years, but the search had been ongoing individually for that long.

I don't think I ever said he was solely responsible for choosing the land! I'll defer to Merion's Board on this one, and on Lesley's earlier Committee Report.  Your attempts to discount CBM's importance to the selection of the land directly contrast with Merion's own internal statements on the matter, as well as their statements to the membership!

Quote
Similarly, Tom likes to fall back on the comment that he's only stating what can be proven by the records. The records only mention CBM twice covering three interactions. This must underplay his contribution significantly based on several things, not the least of which being the several template holes the committee attempted.

I agree, but would add that this not only understates CBM's contribution, it is misleading as to Merion's actual record.  There may have only been mention of CBM in the Minutes of two separate meetings, but so far as I can tell these are the only meetings where the design was actually discussed!   It is not as if there were twenty meetings about Wilson planning the course, and CBM comes up in two of them!  There were only two meetings discussing the planning process and CBM and HJW were not only prominently discussed in both meetings, Merion relied on and acted upon CBM/HJW's input at both such meetings!
______________________________________________________________

You agree with TEPaul that the only thing Tolhurst got wrong is the timing of the trip overseas.  I don't want to try and go through Tolhurst again line by line, but I think you know that this is not accurate.   To name just one very important aspect of the story, Tolhurst also has the timing of the NGLA trip wrong, and he wrongly dismisses it as merely a meeting to discuss Wilson's travel "itinerary."  NGLA had nothing to do with the itinerary or the trip! The trip occurred during the planning of Merion East, and the purpose of the trip was to seek CBM's aid in planning further Merion East!  

Also, Tolhurst and other histories are mistaken as to the very foundation for the initial course!  Tolhurst and others such as Wind (who wrote before Tolhurst!) seem to think that Merion was loosely modeled on what Wilson had learned overseas.   In reality, the initial course was modeled on what CBM had learned overseas and on what CBM had done at NGLA!  This is a big difference that goes well beyond just the timing of the trip.  
_________________________________________________________________


TEPaul's recent efforts are mostly geared toward trying to minimize my findings by his bizarre tangents about who found what, or about how long the myth has been in existence.  I am not interested in any of it.   Regardless of when they were written just about every history book covering the creation of Merion East has that creation story substantially wrong.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 02:37:19 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"TEPaul's recent efforts are mostly geared toward trying to minimize my findings by his bizarre tangents about who found what, or about how long the myth has been in existence.  I am not interested in any of it.   Regardless of when they were written just about every history book covering the creation of Merion East has that creation story substantially wrong."




Of course you're not interested in finding out how long the myth of Wilson's trip abroad in 1910 for seven months that Tolhurst said was intended to prepare him for designing and constructing Merion has been in existence. If one established that and established that the myth may've FIRST occured seventy five years after the fact and time of 1909-1912 (the timeframe of your IMO piece), then one might begin to wonder if that trip story and what Tolhurst's book said about it had any influence at all on the events of 1909-1912.

One may also begin to wonder if you had any idea at all when you wrote that IMO piece when that myth actually first occured or if you even bothered to think if it happened seventy five years after the timeframe of your story or at any other time after the 19109-1912 timeframe of your story in the intevening years between your story timeframe and when it was reported in Tolhust's 1989 book, what that would mean concerning what actually happened in 1909-1912.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
From Mike C:

All,
 
I find the following letter very interesting to the original questions asked on this thread for a  number of reasons.  
 
First, it reflects a degree of sophistication for the year 1900 that I hadn't necessarily anticipated.   To that end, it seems a map was involved (topographical?) and that proposed golf course was "plotted" on that map by the architects after visiting the site in person.   Second, it does use the term "laid out" in an interesting way, having multiple meanings included but not limited to the building process.   For instance, it could also mean that other courses could be "laid out" on a map that might be superior.
 
Finally, although this design work was done by a committee of amateurs experienced in these matters (Rodman Griscom of Merion, Samuel Heebner of Philadelphia Cricket Club, and George Fowle of Philly Cricket) it reflects the thinking of this early time that any "professional" from abroad could likely do this work or better.
 
Pretty fascinating...the letter in it's entirety is posted on the long Cobb's Creek thread.
 
Thanks!
Mike



 
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Joe and Mike:

That is wonderful stuff. Even though it isn't that detailed it does say a lot at least for something that early. I don't know whether that could or should serve as confirmation that a PRE-construction (contour?) map was used to route and design that course on but it seems pretty close to me. That should go on the list of the potential first example. Of course it doesn't come all the way up to the level of the actual map but it's close in my opinion.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
That posting is interesting and thanks to Joe and Mike for posting it, especially the full version on the other thread.  Among other things it shows that at this date even those who had been involved in golf knew that they were in over their heads when compared to the real experts in laying out golf courses.  

But so far as I can tell the letter does NOT use "to lay out" in multiple ways, especially not if one looks at the total letter.  First the map with the course plotted is NOT called referred to as a "layout" and they did not lay a course out on the map.  In all the instances in entire letter, "to lay out" explicitly refers to laying a golf course out UPON THE GROUND.   Laying out did not refer to planning on paper, which was also done, it refers to laying the course out on the ground.
. . . whether there was sufficient ground on which to lay out a golf course . . .
. . . any good golf professional could lay out a first class nine-hole course on this plot of ground . . .
We do not say this is the best possible course that could be laid out upon the ground mentioned . . .


This is the way the phrase was generally used, and the way the phrase was used in relation to Merion's creation.  It is the way Merion used the term in when discussing how they would lay the course out according to the plan CBM had chosen and approved, and the way Lesley used the term when acknowledging in his article that Wilson and committee had laid the course out on the ground with CBM's and HJW's  .  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
TEPaul's latest irrelevant tangent involves when the myth of Wilson's pre-design trip abroad first popped up.  Who cares?  While I did address a bit about the origins of the myth in my IMO, my primary concern has always been to figure out what happened in 1909-1912.  I've NEVER claimed or even implied that there was ever a conspiracy my Merion to misrepresent the story. Sure, two self-appointed and overzealous guardians of the legend got very carried away, but I don't hold that against the club itself.  

As for TEPaul's claim that the myth originated in Tolhurst's book 75 years after the fact, it should come as no surprise to anyone who has followed these discussions that TEPaul is wrong.  The myth had been around for quite some time prior to Tolhurst's book.   But as I said, who cares?  We are all used to TEPaul being wrong about Merion's history by now, and I have no need to rub his nose in it.


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"Jeff,  

I to would like to remain civil, although it isn't easy with TEPaul up to his old tricks again. There is quite a lot we agree upon, and quite a lot that ought be considered beyond dispute, namely that the planning looks to have been a collaborative effort between Merion and CBM/HJW.  I'd go further and say that i also assume we agree that (although CBM appears to have been offering some advice from afar)  after the planning stages CBM's role was greatly diminished and Merion relied more heavily on Wilson.  

Contrary to the claims of some, I never intended to cut Wilson out of design credit. I repeatedly acknowledged, in my IMO and after, that Wilson and friends were working on the details of the plans with CBM at NGLA,"




David Moriarty:

If that is what you now believe and contend now, will you consider altering your IMO and any posts you made on here in which you have said specifically that Wilson and his committee were only responsible for constructing Merion East to Macdonald and Whigam's design plan?

Even better would be for Ran Morrissett to notate that 2008 IMO piece that changes in interpretations have been made by you, Perhaps a better idea would be for you to put up a short Part Two IMO piece on this same subject explaining you have altered your interpretation and why.

If you admit that the planning (routing and design) was a collaborative effort between the Wilson Committee and Macdonald and Whigam with Macdonald and Whigam lending valuable help and assistance to the Wilson Committee who were charged by MCC with designing and construction Merion East (essentially as per Alan Wilson's report to Philler) I will most certainly endorse you and perhaps your Part Two as I'm quite sure Merion Golf Club would as well------as this is essentially the very same thing that MCC recorded back in the beginning and onward for perhaps seventy five years.

The only thing I can see that revised that was Tolhurst's 1989 history book in which that story of Wilson going abroad in 1910 for seven months to study architecture and what that meant first appeared!

Then this subject will be all over for me, at least with you.

Consider it,

Thanks
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 07:11:03 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
My position on this particular issue has been consistent for years.  I said in my IMO that Merion contributed to the routing and plan, and that Wilson was working on the plan with CBM at NGLA and have maintained it since.  But the evidence of the extent of CBM's involvement in the design is much stronger now than when I wrote my IMO.  If I amend my IMO it will state the case in much stronger terms than previously, and TEPaul will not be happy with that.    

The last thing I am looking for is TEPaul's endorsement.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 07:18:40 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"TEPaul's latest irrelevant tangent involves when the myth of Wilson's pre-design trip abroad first popped up.  Who cares?"


Who cares? A lot of people do and some people who have more than a passing interest, like most on here, in this subject. They understand the implications involved if a mistaken interpretation that occured around 1989, about seventy five years after the fact (1909-1912) and turned into a myth that Wilson did something in 1910 and for reasons that were not true, had no actual basis in fact back then and therefore no influence at all on what happened in particularly 1911 and 1912 when the records show the course was routed, designed and constructed. We are talking not just about Macdonald and Whigam, we are also talking about the Wilson Committee here too, and it is a pretty provable fact that they were formed in January 1911 and began operating at that time to design and then construct Merion East.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 07:23:44 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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David,

As to attribution in my office, I will say that we discuss all of this in ASGCA.  There is no real set standard.  Some architects are generous in crediting associates, even if they formally retain rights to all credit as head of the firm, others are very stingy.  

As to my double standard comments, lets forget that, and answer a question I posed earlier - you mention that CBM is mentioned often by Wilson in his agronomy letters.  I frankly recall only two  - that CBM spoke highly of Oakley and the other saying they had just returned from NGLA.  Do any other refererences contain CBM's name?  Specific reference to design topics?  It is somewhat contradictory - in one side you say HW didn't do much design work.  On the other, you presume he wrote many unfound letters to CBM about design.  But, I guess its wise to explore both possibilities in the name of fairness.  So, if you could provide the comments HW made that apply directly to CBM and design (I think I got those letters from TePaul long ago, but cannot find them in a quick search, but I trust you to transcribe what you have) I would appreciate it.  It would go a long way to clearing up my impressions of what might have happened before the NGLA meeting.

Secondly, I actually doubt there would be such letters, even if they did work together on the routing.  I have tried (even today with a draftsman over the phone) to describe golf features on the phone, and I have tried in emails.  Frankly, discussing an actual routing in words is hard, its more of a visual and plan thing, leading me to believe they either mailed each other their preliminary plans, if any, back and forth, or more likely, simply arranged those two meetings to go over things together.

I hate to get involved in a peeing match between adversaries, but if I recall, you have changed your position a bit, because originally didn't you think CBM planned it prior to the 11-11-10 meeting, whereas now you favor the Jan-April 1911 time frame?  At least, that is what we have been focusing on this time around.  If I am wrong, I apologize, typing both my recollections of the Ag letters and your IMO from memory.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach