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Jeff_Brauer

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TePaul,

One question troubles me and it is "WTF?"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rich Goodale

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My 2,500 page Merriam-Webster family heirloom 1907 dictionary defines "lay out" as:

"To plan in detail; to arrange; as to lay out a garden."

To me this seems clear.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

TEPaul

"If you have the routing, the individual hole design tends to fall in place based upon the terrain."



Pat:

I definitely would not say that. I doubt any architect would say that.

One can take a simple stick routing that includes eighteen specfic hole distances and directions and certainly call it a complete routing but if it only has a point for the tee, a line for direction and distance and a point for a green site (and features to be man-made such as bunkering) of each hole that certainly does not include necessary and important "design" features such as size and shape of greens, widths of fairways, bunkering and other architectural features etc.

As an example just look at Crump's original stick routing of Pine Valley. It was certainly his original routing but it had no design features on it.

I believe the "design phase" which generally follows the routing phase would allow any golf architect to take any single "routing" and make it look like 50-100 different courses simply by varying the "design phase" features mentioned above.

TEPaul

Rich:

Would you say your 1907 heirloom edition dictionary definition could include a plan done on paper (such as a topo map) before anything was done on the ground in the process of planning or creating a garden or a golf course?




"Besides, in the case of Merion the usage was clear.   According to Merion's Board minutes, Merion decided to "lay out" the golf course according to a plan as determined by CBM and HJW."



David Moriarty:

Would you mind stating exactly what the Merion Board minutes actually said about the plan selected for Merion East and CBM's and HJW's part in the process? And if you don't choose to I will do it for you. I do not recall Merion's Board minutes saying 'Merion decided to lay out the golf course according to a plan as determined by CBM and HJW.' I believe the words "to a plan as determined by CBM and HJW" are merely your own words and not Merion's. It is generally not a good idea to try to insert your own words into Merion Board minutes when attempting to make some point. You were given those original Merion Board minutes by Merion (and specifically by Wayne Morrison) a good number of months ago now, so unlike when you wrote your IMO piece on Merion in 2008 when you did not have them all, at this point you should be able to quote them accurately.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 11:28:34 AM by TEPaul »

Steve Burrows

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My 2,500 page Merriam-Webster family heirloom 1907 dictionary defines "lay out" as:

"To plan in detail; to arrange; as to lay out a garden."

To me this seems clear.

To use this definition as a contemporaneous understanding of the concept (which is TEPaul's purpose in this thread), I would be inclined to say that "to lay out" means much more than just the routing.  With respect to a garden, "To plan in detail" means to go beyond generalities of the structure - or skeleton - of the site, but to consider the specific location of various plant materials, fountains, etc.  Similarly, "to plan in detail" a golf course would indicate that the planner/designer addressed issues beyond just the generalities (i.e. the routing) but also included the specifics (which potentially includes the bunkering scheme, green contours, fairway lines, etc).
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

TEPaul

Steve Burrows:

I would agree with you. I would go further to say that depending on the particular speaker or writer back then the term "to lay out" could and did mean everything from an initial routing to the construction of the golf course. In other words, it could and did back then often include pretty much everything golf course architecture entails.

In addition, there are some instances and examples from back then (including from Merion) when speakers and writers used the language-----"to lay out and construct.."

In examples like that unless the writer purposefully intended to be completely redundant, he obviously was making some distinction or difference between the acts of "To lay out" and "to construct."


And again, after reading over an unbelievable amount of literature from back then over the last dozen or so years I have yet to see the term "routing" used back then at and around the beginning of the 20th century!

Peter Pallotta

I like that Rich used the 1907 definition; I guess we can assume an analagous contemporary usage in regards gca. But I don't think we can go any further and assume that the term was used as a synonym for what we understand today as routing or (especially) designing -- in large part because of how much the profession and ethos of design has changed in the last hundred years.  When Ross laid out Pinehurst #2, it seems to have been the beginning of the design process for him, not the end (for, what else could explain his constant tinkering); and after Merion had been laid out, Wilson came back from the UK with still much to do in order to finish it. I have a feeling there are dozens of other example; I just don't knopw them.

Peter

TEPaul

Peter:


I think that when Merion mentioned via a committee report contained in the Board minutes on April 19, 1911 that they had '...laid out many different courses on the new land...' that both can and did mean only one thing-----routing and routing iterations.

Just simply that that came first in the chronology of what they were reporting and considering this was all before they began to construct anything at all on the land  in the form of tees, greens, bunkers etc that it basically had to have been what we today call routing. I just don't see that at that very early point it could possibly have meant anything else.

Personally, I think this type of "time-lining" or timeline chronology analysis considering the various steps and processes of golf course architecture (that some things just must come before other things) is absolutely the best and most understandable way to deal with this type of question.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 12:45:53 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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TePaul,

I agree that generally, it doesn't make sense to flesh out features on any given hole in any more than a real prelim way until you are sure it will be in the final routing.  Why waste the time, unless to sort of test some sort of balance of holes?  I doubt MCC was that sophisiticated.

That said, hardly anyone was real sophisticated about design in those days.  Now, contracts call for several different phases of design, but then? At MCC they probably already knew that Pickering  was coming to build it  so maybe "Laid out" probably meant routing to them, but to others, it might have included all facets of design, or as David suggested, to some, to perform surveying.

So, I agree with Pat that it meant many things to different people at that point in time.  So, using one example of the phrase may not be very productive in pinpointing any universal meaning. 

As always, I could be wrong.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Herrmann

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From Mike Cirba:





All,
 
As most here have noted, I've seen those terms ("lay out", "laid out", "layout") all used as verbs and nouns during that time period to connote a variety of architecturally related functions including basic routing, on-the-ground hole "detailing", and feature construction.   I think the meaning at any given time requires an accurate assessment as to the acutal historical timelining of the mention.
 
For instance, in the following article Robert Lesley talks about the plans he has seen "laid out" for a public course.   In this case we know that this is something that exists only on paper, because it was published several months before construction of the golf course began.   This is confirmed in a later paragraph when he mentions that work will actually begin on the course when the weather permits in the spring.
 

 
In my mind, this is similar in meaning to the following from the Merion Cricket Club Committee minutes from April 1911, which read, in part;
 
"On our return, we re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans.  On April 6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to any inland course in the world.  In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to aquire 3 acres additional."
 
“Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing the proposed layout of the new golf ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of the land already purchased for other land adjoining and the purchase of about 3 acres additional for $7,500, and asked the approval of this Board, on motion."

 
In this case, once again we see that we're clearly talking about paper plans, or design plans, or if you will, routing plans.   This was again talking about activities taking place before construction actually started.   It's also clear that they are talking about paper plans when they say they showed the various plans to CBM, as well as when they "presented a plan showing the proposed layout" at the Board meeting.
 
In the case of the Merion Committee, I think it was largely a stroke of genius for them to have CBM come down and tell them which of their five plans he thought was the best.   It probably not only helped them decide between any possible disagreeements among themselves in terms of which was best, but it also added gravitas to their recommendation to the board, given CBM's reputation.   That these guys would seek outside opinions and work collaboratively really became a hallmark of their approach ongoing, and a really distinctive historical aspect to the Philadelphia School of Architecture, in my opinion.
 
Finally, I think the larger question here is this;
 
It's one thing to say that someone is going to lay out, or is laying out, or any of those terms that we agree cover a gamut of architectural and construction related activities.   However, I've seen very little contemporaneous writing that credits someone with "having laid out" a golf course where they are not also crediting that person with the architectural attribution.  Perhaps in some cases where a very renowned course construction man like a Fred Pickering (who constructed hundreds of courses, including Merion East) is mentioned as having laid out a course, but seriously, how many have seen contemporaneous reporting where someone is mentioned as having "laid out" a golf course can folks cite where they meant that person only was responsible for construction only and not architecture?
 
Certainly any objective answer would concede that those cases are indeed rare exceptions and errors, and certainly not oft-reported and oft-repeated news articles for the remainder of that architect's life reported in the city of his residence.
 
Thanks,
Mike
 

Jeff_Brauer

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Dan,

Good point, although the builders never have gotten a lot of credit, and in those days, they were more often one and the same.

I bet that good Christian Tom Bendelow was glad that he wasn't credited with "18 lays on a Sunday afternoon."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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As I think Niall suggested above, there was a lot of flux in what was ongoing in gca around this time.  Steps were being added to the process, and what was once simply described is not quite as simple anymore, and so we have some confusion as to what exactly "laying out" a course entails.  

Generally though, to "lay out" a golf course meant to arrange it on the ground, like one might arrange the plants in a garden.

In some situations, such as with the early "18 stakes in an after noon" guys (if any such guys really existed) laying out a golf course could mean wandering around the countryside marking off the golf course as they went, just as one might mark off a cross country horse race course.  

Other times, though, the planning was done separately from the laying out, or arranging on the ground.  In such cases we might have a proposed lay out, or a layout plan. Merion gives us multiple examples of this, the first is H.H. Barker, who on June 10, 1910 wrote:

I to-day have inspected the property at Haverford, south of College Avenue, where it is proposed to lay out a golf course . . . I am enclosing a sketch of the property in quesitonon which I have roughly shown in pencil a proposed lay-out of the course. . . . I believe the proposed course could be constructed . . .   (my emphasis)

In the above snippet is Barker indicating that he "laid out" Merion?   No. Was He drew up a proposed lay-out of the course.  In other words it was a proposal of how the course should be arranged on the ground.  The course had not yet been arranged on the ground so there was no layout.  His paper contained a rough drawing of a "proposed course."  Whether any of his "proposed lay-out" was used in the actual layout, we don't know.

Other examples are posted by Mike above, although Mike seems somewhat confused by the examples. To my mind these examples clearly distinguish between planning a golf course on paper and laying out out (arranging it) on the ground.  

. . . if we would lay it out according to the plan [CBM and HJW] approved, submitted herewith . . .

. . .Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing the proposed layout of the new golf ground. . .


Again, in both instances, the course had been planned but had not yet been laid out.   The course would be laid out according to the plan CBM and HJW approved.   That is why it was referred to as a "proposed lay out."   It wasn't a lay out because the course had not yet been arranged on the ground.  It was a plan.  A proposal for how to arrange the course on the ground.  

Now sometimes the language is very sloppy and sometimes layout is used synonymously with plan, but for the most part, and in most of the examples, to lay out a course meant to arrange it on the ground, not to plan it on paper, to be arranged on the ground later.  During this time period it is rare to find instances where one is said to have "laid out" a golf course when all they have done is plan it on paper. Laying it out generally requires that the course be arranged on the ground.  

I say this based on reading hundreds of contemporaneous discussions of the creation of various golf courses.

[I really would rather this not digress into a discussion of Merion, but in his post above, Mike leaves out the part about how Merion's committee had returned from NGLA where they had been working on the lay out plan for the course with CBM!  That is what Lesley is referring to when he writes "On our return . . . ." In other words, CBM and HJW not only determined the plan from amongst the various attempts Merion had "laid out" on the ground after returning from NGLA, CBM and HJW had also been involved in coming up with those plans in the first place, and had been involved in that process since the previous summer when they went to Merion to help choose the land for the course!]
 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 03:57:52 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Carl Nichols

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FWIW, the current Merriam Webster (online) has the following definition--

Definition of LAY OUT
transitive verb
1: display, exhibit
2: spend
3a : to prepare (a corpse) for viewing b : to knock flat or unconscious
4: to plan in detail <lay out a campaign>
5: arrange, design
6: to mark (work) for drilling, machining, or filing

Lester George

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Perhaps the laying out related to the inspection of the physical ground in terms of length, hole proximity, features, and route. 

That all became much more complicated once golf courses started moving into the woods.  Form may have followed function.  As the business of golf architecture grew, and more people started requesting "layouts" on grounds that weren't cropland or coastal (namely vegetated) the planners simply had to start using TOPOS becuase of the dense vegetation, time constraints and travel realities.  I know by 1910 TOPO was used in early planning of the Greenbrier courses and completely in place bt the time Raynor arrived in 1912-13.  They had accurate TOPO because the resort was owned by the Rialroad, which had plenty of in-house engineers and surveyors. 

Just my opinion, but I did find specific evidence of that while researching the Old White in the C&O archives.

Lester

Bill_McBride

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Pat:

I agree and I don't either. But I do know it was a term commonly used back then a century or so ago and it is a term that has virtually never been used in modern times----and so I think it is a term that needs to be discussed and even debated as to its meaning and definition to those who clearly used it commonly a century or so ago.

In the construction business, we still use the term "lay out" as a verb.   As in, "Get over there and lay out the foundation for that building.". But I guess that is more in response to an architect's drawings rather than original work.   If you equate "lay out" to "route," it has a whole new meaning. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Looking at Carl's definiton, a layout could be either a depiction or marking out in the field.

When you think about it, what is the end result of designing, or detailed preplanning?  A design?  A plan?  A layout? (for golf courses,  Layout makes as much sense as any.

When Barker writes:  "I am enclosing a sketch of the property in quesitonn which I have roughly shown in pencil a proposed lay-out of the course," it reads to me as if the final product of his drawing work is a layout plan, or shortened, a layout.

Hmm, we have many examples of it used different ways, dictionaries of both eras show it defined both ways, and it is still used both ways on occaision, even if supplemented by other terms.  Either way they used it, (detail planning or arranging in the field) it would be correct according to the 1907 dictionary.  So, I presume they did use it both ways, either via ignorance (the news rags) but also if educated with a tendency to be precise with words.

IMHO, TePaul is trying to cut the cheese slices just a little too fine here!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 06:32:49 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Herrmann

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Jeff - Come on, Tom has never 'cut the cheese' :)

Jeff_Brauer

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Probably never sliced a cheese ball, either! 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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Lester, I agree that usage probably started to change with the advent of planning on paper instead of in the field.  If the arranging the holes on the ground was all that was done, then the planning and laying out are one and the same.   But when things became more complicated it became more commonplace for a course to be planned first on paper (be it on topo or not) then laid out in the field according to those plans.  The more steps in the process, the harder it is to describe using the old descriptions, and the usage gets a bit trickier, especially when the plan wasn't done by the same person who actually arranged the course on the ground.

As for the use of topo, so far as I can tell the use had been around for quite some time by some designers, and may be predate 1890, but this depended upon the designer and the job, I guess. Willie Dunn was one of the early designers in America who seems to have been using using topo maps.  It may not be a coincidence that Dunn also took difficult terrain requiring substantial clearing and/or construction.

Regarding Raynor in particular, he would reportedly draw up plans on a topo map, and CBM would review and modify those plans, leaving the field work to Raynor.
___________________________________

I don't understand how some people are trying to equate "to lay out" with some particular part of the process such as the routing process.   It would seem to me to depend on the nature of the project, and could include much more than just routing. 

_________________________________________

Jeff Brauer,

Meaning comes from usage during the relevant time period, and generally if one looks at enough uses of the phrase, one will notice that the unexecuted plan is rarely called the "layout" unless it has been arranged on the ground.  That may have become the case eventually, but it doesn't seem to have been the case in 1910.   I don't think it makes much sense to work off a modern definitions and then go back and change what people wrote based on our modern understanding.

With Barker, for example, you take his phrase and then cut out the key words.  But in doing so you change the meaning of the words that are left.  Barker did NOT shorten the phrase, and he did not refer to his drawing as a lay out.   The course had not been laid out.  It was "proposed" but not yet laid out.  One could propose plan how the holes would be arranged on paper, but the actual arranging took place in the field.   It would be the difference between writing a list of items in a particular order versus actually laying the items out in that order in the real world.

Eventually "layout plan" or "proposed layout" may have been shortened to your "layout,"  and eventually "to lay out" a golf course might have meant to draw out a plan, but at this time that usage seems fairly rare.  The more common usage was that one laid out a course on the ground, not on paper.   

If you don't believe me I suggest you spend the time reading hundreds of articles about the creation of courses during this time period and that you pay special attention to just what exactly the authors are referring when the speak of a layout or laying out a course.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Jeffrey Brauer Esq, Past President of the ASGCA et al, etc, etc:


In response to your #40---where to begin, where to begin?

I suppose the first point should be to ask you what "cheese" means in the context of the history of golf course architecture. When I learn that from you perhaps I can determine if I cut it too fine or too thin on this thread.

I am very interested in etymology, always have been (when at St Marks School back in the early 1960s, one summer I actually memorized a dictionary (OED) that included etymology, as the OED was originally required to include.

Anyway, assuming you do not intend "cheese" to be completely synonymous with the use of the term "lay out" in the history of golf course architecture you should note that in my opening post and elsewhere I have stated that I believe "lay out" was used, somewhat depending on the speaker or writer, in the context of golf course architecture early on (around the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century), as a fairly general term that could and did include the various phased of golf architectural planning and construction.





Rich Goodale

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My 2,500 page Merriam-Webster family heirloom 1907 dictionary defines "lay out" as:

"To plan in detail; to arrange; as to lay out a garden."

To me this seems clear.

To use this definition as a contemporaneous understanding of the concept (which is TEPaul's purpose in this thread), I would be inclined to say that "to lay out" means much more than just the routing.  With respect to a garden, "To plan in detail" means to go beyond generalities of the structure - or skeleton - of the site, but to consider the specific location of various plant materials, fountains, etc.  Similarly, "to plan in detail" a golf course would indicate that the planner/designer addressed issues beyond just the generalities (i.e. the routing) but also included the specifics (which potentially includes the bunkering scheme, green contours, fairway lines, etc).

Thanks Steve (and Tom P)

My reading of the relevant definition is that "lay out" includes everything from the first stick diagram through to the final construction diagams (and even beyond, as the course is tweaked after opening).  That to me is what constitutes "detailed planning."  Vis a vis Merion, it seems to me from the evidence that what Barker did (stick diagram) was a very primitive form of "laying out" a course (but not the course that was eventually approved) and CBM's work--intially verbalized generic templates (the "ideal course") plus later commentary on detailed plans (referenced but never produced, at least on this forum and seemingly put together by Wilson and his committee)--was consultancy rather than "laying out" or designing the course.  Just my opinion, of course.  It is also my opinion that the M-W definition noted by Carl Nichols below (and also present in my 1907 version) relating to the "laying out (of a corpse)" might also be relevant vis a vis our lingering debate vis a vis Merion, or as we might say these days, "Put a fork in it, it's done!".......

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

TEPaul

"TEP
I think you asked and answered your own question, which is a little odd. I'm too too tired to look it up, but I believe CBM was referring to the first use of the term 'golf architecture,' not the first example of golf architecture per say."



Tom MacWood:


Whether just asking the question on this thread or asking it and answering it in various ways, my intention with this thread is to explore in more detail and perhaps with more specificity what-all the term "to lay out," "laying out," "laid out" meant to those back in the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century. Again, this term seems to have completely preceded other commonly used terms today such as "routing" or largely even "designing."

Some such as yourself and Pat Mucci tend to just ask questions on this DG and then proceed to often disagree with the responses of others, and in Pat's case often for pages and pages on end. I've long felt it might be even more productive to yourselves and certainly others on this website if when asking some question both of you also included what you think the answer might be and then wait to see if and how others agree or disagree with you. I have asked the question and then included what I feel was generally meant back then by those using the term. If that troubles or disturbs you somehow, well, I'm sorry about that.

This is a discussion board, not just an inquiry or question asking board.

There appear to be a number of interesting distinctions and differences to be made by those using the term back then as compared or contrasted to other terms and words used back then to describe various processes and evolving processes in golf course architecture.

As to what Macdonald meant when he made his remarks about NGLA being the first example of golfing architecture he was aware of, he may've used the term "architecture" or even 'scientific architecture' as just a term but clearly he had a number of things in mind about what it meant and what it did not mean and how it may've been distinct or different from golf architecture processes that came before it (architecture).

These kinds of distinctions and differences in words and terms, evolutionary and otherwise, may not be important or interesting to you in the analyses and understanding of the history of golf architecture but they certainly are to me.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 11:35:54 AM by TEPaul »

Niall C

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Pat:

I agree and I don't either. But I do know it was a term commonly used back then a century or so ago and it is a term that has virtually never been used in modern times----and so I think it is a term that needs to be discussed and even debated as to its meaning and definition to those who clearly used it commonly a century or so ago.

In the construction business, we still use the term "lay out" as a verb.   As in, "Get over there and lay out the foundation for that building.". But I guess that is more in response to an architect's drawings rather than original work.   If you equate "lay out" to "route," it has a whole new meaning. 

Bill
A very good example but I actually think the meaning of lay out is closer to route than you give credit for. For instance when you lay out the founds for a building, are you not defining the footprint of a building in the same way that a routing plan provides the foundations of the course ?

Niall

DMoriarty

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You guys get so caught up in the wonders of abstraction that some of you seem to be forgetting that we are talking about golf courses here.  

At this point "to lay out a golf course" required actual interaction with the ground.  It wasn't jotting out a plan on a piece of paper.  
  - I hear you've laid out a golf course?  
  - Yep?
  - Where is it?  
  - Right here on the back of this napkin!
  - Well how can I golf on that?  
  - Grab yourself a pencil and meet me at the first tee!


Whatever Rich might think, when HH Barker, golf architect, sketched out a rough plan for Merion's golf course course, HH Barker knew that he had not laid out Merion's golf course.  He knew he had just done a plan or a proposal, which is why he said so.  The laying out would have to come later.

Likewise,  Merion's minutes don't say that Merion had already laid out their golf course when CBM and HJW approved the final plan that they had helped create.   They said "if we would lay it out according to the plan [CBM and HJW] approved . . . ."  In other words, the course itself hadn't yet been laid out.   That is why they refer to the plan as "a proposed layout" and why Barker also referred to a "proposed lay-out."    The plan was a proposal of how the course would be laid out --how it would be arranged on the ground.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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But who am I to argue . . .

I'll just concede the point so we can all be in agreement that CBM and HJW were ultimately responsible for the original "layout" of Merion?     After all, they were not only integral in creating the "lay out," they were responsible for approving the final "lay out."  The paperwork was done at this point, thus the course was already "laid out."

Now that was easy, wasn't it?

I almost forgot.  We better give HHBarker co-credit for the layout, because he had already laid out Merion's golf course the previous summer, whether they asked him to or not.

This historical analysis stuff is easier than I thought.  
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 02:10:14 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)