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TEPaul

"I've read a lot of early accounts dealing with golf course development and I can provide examples where the term clearly means construct, and examples where it means plan, and examples where it means both, and examples where it is unclear what it means."



Tom MacWood:


So have I---hundreds and hundreds of them (Dropbox and Folder Share on my computer has a thousand or more of them), and I agree with you. Sometimes it does mean construct and sometimes it means "plan" and sometimes it is unclear what it means. Merion's president at the time even used his own variation of "lay out" when he said "lay off." What does "plan or "a plan" mean to you? Does it or can it mean to you a PRE-construction paper plan that includes a PRE-construction routing?

Since you say you have read so many early accounts, can you provide an example of the first use of the term "routing" that you have ever seen?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 11:48:28 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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1890 is the first date I've seen the use of the term 'laid out' as meaning planning or designing. Routing is a modern term.

TEPaul

"1890 is the first date I've seen the use of the term 'laid out' as meaning planning or designing. Routing is a modern term."



Tom MacWood:

Yes, I understand that but my question to you, and others, is since "routing" is a modern term what term did they use back then to mean routing? If routing back then wasn't also referred to as "laying out" then what term was used back then to refer to routing?

Tom MacWood

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Laying out, plan, arrange and other terms were used to describe the act of routing golf holes, but laying out was by far the most common term used.

TEPaul

"Laying out, plan, arrange and other terms were used to describe the act of routing golf holes, but laying out was by far the most common term used."



Tom MacWood:

Thank you. I would completely agree with that. Therefore, it is very interesting that the Wilson Committee report to the Merion Board meeting of April 19, 1911 which is actually the first committee report to the board since the committee was formed and includes a chronicle of what they had been doing over perhaps 2-3 months, also includes all three words and terms (laid out, plan and arrange) in one single sentence of that committee report to the Board!

And of course the timeline is notable since everything they reported in that committee report occured BEFORE their final plan out of five different plans in the preceding month was submitted to the Board on April 19, 1911 and approved by the Board and before they began construction.

Therefore, although the Merion records also report that Macdonald/Whigam assisted and aided Merion on three separate occasions over a period of ten months, this looks like pretty clear proof to confirm the many decades old interpretation of MCC and Merion G.C. that Hugh Wilson and his committee created multiple plans (routings) for Merion East during that period, including the one plan (routing) out of five Wilson Committee plans selected by Macdonald and Whigam on April 6, 1911 that was submitted to the Board for approval. The committee report also records the events of April 6, 1911 in more detail----ie that after going over the ground itself and going over the five plans shown to them by the committee on April 6, 1911, Macdonald/Whigam selected one of the plans and said they would approve of it as they felt it included the best last seven holes of any inland golf course in the world. Again, that was the plan submitted to the Board on April 19, 1911 (on paper, by the way) and it was approved by Merion's Board and became the Merion East golf course.

Of course this all occured before the course went into construction which would mean they were not speaking of or writing about "laying out" meaning actual construction of golf holes on the ground which is what the IMO piece "Missing Faces of Merion" contends and concludes that that was the Wilson Committee's sole responsibility (to construct the course to someone else's plan).

This also means that the architectural history of Merion East as always told by Merion GC with Hugh Wilson and his committee being completely involved in all phases of the creation of Merion East with the aid and assistance of Macdonald and Whigam on three separate occasions over a ten month period is true, as Merion originally recorded it and always told it.

Therefore, there is no myth or mythology there!

The Desmond Tolhurst history book of 1988 appears to have made only two real historical mistakes, which did turn out to be a myths. The first was when the Tolhurst Merion history book assumed and reported in 1988 (77 years after the facts of 1911) that Wilson went abroad in 1910 rather than 1912.

The 1988 Tolhurst history book's second mistake was a story that is even more ironic-------it also reported that there had long been a romantic rumor around Merion that Wilson almost went down on the Titanic but that that could not have been true as his trip abroad (1910) was almost a year and a half BEFORE the Titanic sunk. That reported romantic rumor of course turned out to be the truth, as Wayne Morrison reported a number of years ago and David Moriarty later confirmed when he produced the ship manifest of Wilson sailing from abroad a week or two after the Titanic sunk.

The Titanic story and Wilson actually gets even odder. The father (Clement Griscom) of Wilson Committee member, Rodman Griscom, was the chairman of the board of International Mercantile Marine (IMM) that essentially owned the White Star Line that owned the Titanic. And added to that, Merion Board member John Thayer went down on the Titanic and Hugh Wilson assumed his position on the Board of Directors of MCC.

Tom MacW, thank you very much for helping me finally clear all this up. As a result of what you just said above, I now find you to be a better analyst of golf architecture history than I have previous thought.

Why don't you pass all this on to David Moriarty, as it appears in the last few days he is now refusing to discuss anything about Merion with me.   ;)

Actually, somewhat counter to something else you said above---eg nothing new has been produced here-----in my experience it is generally not just when something new is produced that the truth comes out but when various previous interpretations that are flawed are reinterpreted and corrected. One that note, I invite you to have a one on one discussion with me (and please invite David Moriarty if you would) so we can go over the numerous mistaken interpretations and mistakes in the times of various events in that IMO piece and perhaps encourage the author of that essay to correct them once and for all (actually the IMO piece ("The Missing Faces of Merion") is an awful mess and has been for some time for some reason----its footnotes and such became completely messed up and unnumbered for some reason, some time ago. I read it again the other day and it has become very hard to follow even if its mistakes were corrected).

« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 04:05:36 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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TEP
Have you suffered a head injury? As everyone has acknowledged the term was used interchangeably.

I thought this thread was bizarre when you started it because everyone already knew the term had dual meaning, but this was obviously your backdoor attempt to rehash the Merion myth. Been there, done that.

Neil_Crafter

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"Routing" is not a modern term. A report on Mackenzie's Sacramento public course, now Haggin Oaks, from 1931 says that "Mackenzie has drawn a preliminary routing of the course." and then "Preliminary routing called for a distance of 6,700 yards."

As for "laid out" my take also is that the use was interchangeable. I have seen both.

TEPaul

Tom MacW:

No, there's no head injury here, but I am glad to hear you say that everyone agrees with me that the term "lay out," "layed out," "laid out" back then included routing and even a routing transposed to and submitted to paper as well as applying to other phases of golf course architecture.

And I am encouraged to see you add the terms "arrange" and "plan" to including routing, particularly since all three words were used in a single sentence in the Wilson Committee report.

Concerning Merion, I think it's important if one cares a thing anymore about what David Moriarty's 2008 IMO piece, "The Missing Faces of Merion" concluded which was Wilson and his committee was not involved in the routing and hole design of Merion East but was only responsible for constructing the course to someone else's plan (Moriarty suggested the plan was Macdonald's and Whigam's and you seemed to suggest the plan was HH Barker's).

Given the interchangeableness of those terms back then anyone can read what the facts are from what they say in that Wilson Committee report to the Board---eg the committee laid out numerous courses on the land before going to NGLA, where they reported they looked at CBM's data from abroad, went over his course the next day and learned some valuable lessons on how to identify their natural features or construct others and such, and on their return they produced five different plans from which Macdonald and Whigam on April 6, 1911 approved of one apparently on the strength of the fact that in their opinion it contained the best last seven holes of any inland course in the world.

I don't see how it can get much clearer than that. Obviously that's why MCC and Merion said from the very beginning of Merion East that Hugh Wilson and his committee created Merion East with some valuable aid and assistance from those two kindly gentlemen Macdonald and Whigam.

I think that completely supports Merion East's long told architectural history and completely scotches the IMO piece ("The Missing Faces Of Merion") myth that contended Wilson and his committee did not route or design the holes of Merion East but only constructed them to someone else's plan.

Thanks for your help in helping me clarify it for others on this website, if Merion's original architectural history ever actually needed clarifying for anyone. I think that wraps it up. Is there anything else you'd like to discuss concerning the architectural history of Merion East? There are a lot more historical inaccuracies in that IMO piece but at this point it sounds to me like you don't have much interest in finding out what they are.

I appreciate your help, particularly with your Post #78.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 06:39:55 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Neil:

Thank you for that example of the use of the term "routing" from Mackenzie in 1931. Frankly, I did not mean to imply that it was a modern term, only that I have never seen it used at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century. For instance, Merion East's routing was approved in April 1911, twenty years before that example of Mackenzie's but no one referred to it at Merion back then as "routing." According to Tom MacWood most seem to agree the terms used back then appear to be either "lay out," "arranged" or "plan."

Thanks again for that example.

Tom MacWood

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"Routing" is not a modern term. A report on Mackenzie's Sacramento public course, now Haggin Oaks, from 1931 says that "Mackenzie has drawn a preliminary routing of the course." and then "Preliminary routing called for a distance of 6,700 yards."

As for "laid out" my take also is that the use was interchangeable. I have seen both.

Neil
That is a surprise. I would have guessed it came later than 1931 based on a quick search of American Golfer and Golf Illustrated. I probably should have said it is relatively modern term as compared to 'laying out.' But most important since the term 'routing' does not appear in the Merion archives its genesis doesn't apply to this thread. 

TEP
Desperate times call for desperate measures. 

DMoriarty

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There you have it.  This whole thread is just some convoluted word game so TEPaul can make some desperate leap of logic to an untenable conclusion about Merion.  It would be a full-time job to clear up the misinformation this guy tries to pass off as fact, so I'll stick to just a few main points.

Hugh Wilson didn't report anything to the board in April of 1911, nor did his "Construction Committee."  Robert Lesley reported on behalf of the Golf Committee. "Golf Committee through Mr. Lesley report as follows on the new Golf Grounds."  While Lesley was the chair of the Golf Committee, he was NOT a member of the Construction Committee. TEPaul is apparently just making up the part about the "Wilson Committee Report" to make it seem as if Wilson's committee was running the show.  But there is no evidence in the Minutes indicating that the Construction Committee even existed at this point! In fact, there is not even a mention of Wilson in relation to the project at this point!  Looking at the Minutes from this critical period of time, one would never know Wilson had a thing to do with the planning of the course.  

In contrast to the glaring absence of anything about Wilson or his Committee during this period, the Minutes make obvious that Merion was looking to Macdonald and Whigham regarding the planning of their new golf course. The Golf Committee brought them down to Merion to go over land before the purchased, and the Committee based its recommendation to purchase the land "largely on [CBM's and HJW's] opinion."  Members of the Golf Committee traveled to NGLA to seek their further advice on how to lay out the Merion course. The Golf Committee tried to implement what they had learned at NGLA, but still had CBM and HJW come back down to Merion to determine and approve the final layout plan, and the Golf Committee contemplated that Merion "would lay it out according to the plan CBM and HJW had approved."

Yet TEPaul takes from this that it was really Wilson, who isn't even mentioned, who was driving the project at this stage?  

TEPaul also pretends that the April 19 Lesley Report "includes a chronicle of what they had been doing over perhaps 2-3 months . . ."   Laughable.    Here is the sum total of this "chronicle" detailing the Golf Committee's efforts prior to NGLA: ". . . after laying out many different courses on the new land. . . ."  That is it.   Seriously.  That is the "chronicle." It doesn't even justify its own sentence! TEPaul's description of the "chronicle" is longer than the chronicle and has more information --information not found in the supposed chronicle!   Here is the entire sentence . . .

"Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different courses on the new land, they went down to the National Course with Mr. McDonald and spent the evening looking over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard to golf courses."
(my emphasis)

Nothing about two or three months.  Nothing about Wilson's committee.  Nothing about who was helping them, if anyone.

This is the proof the Hugh Wilson's Committee designed Merion?  A clause in a report by a different Committee mentioning that they had tried some layouts prior to going to CBM to look over CBM's plans?  For all we know, they could have been trying, unsuccessfully, to do what CBM had told them when they were going over the land back in June!  But whatever "laying out many different courses on the new land" entailed, Merion apparently was not very pleased with their own efforts,because they changed course (literally) when they got back from NGLA!  "On our return, we rearranged the course and laid out five different plans." 

They go to NGLA then come back and rearrange the course, yet we are to believe CBM had nothing to do with it?  They then have CBM and HJW travel down again to go over the land again and to determine a final plan from the various options, and to approve a final plan, yet CBM and HJW shouldn't get credit for planning the course?  Really?  What else would it take?  A Redan, and Alps, a Road, and an Eden?  Oh wait . . .

Contrary to TEPaul's claims, the bulk of the portion of the report dealing with the design is about CBM's and HJW's contribution and the plan they determined and approved.  CBM and HJW determined and approved the final layout plan.  Nothing about Hugh Wilson or his Committee.  The rest of the report dealt with hiring the contractor.  

So Merion tried to build a CBM course.  That is why it was reported, even before the course opened,  that many of the holes were based on holes abroad.   That is why Merion reportedly attempted to build the four main templates at this early date:  An Alps, a Redan, a Road, and an Eden.  That is why Merion had a number of other CBM signature features and holes, including a double plateau. That is why Whigham listed it among courses by CBM and/or Raynor.  That is why Robert Lesley acknowledged CBM and HJW and in his 1914 Article.  

The last, by the way, provides another good example of how "to lay out" was used:

The ground was found adapted for golf and a course was laid out upon it about three years ago by the [Construction Committee] who had as advisers, Charles B. Macdonald and H. J. Whigham.

CBM and HJW didn't lay the course out upon the ground.  Merion did.  But the course was laid out upon ground purchased largely in reliance on CBM and HJW's advice, and according to a layout plan that CBM and HJW not only helped create, they determined and approved the plan, and the plan was submitted to the Board as the plan they approved!  

The whole thing is comical.  It is impossible to reasonably compare the Minutes regarding Wilson's contributions as compared to those of CBM and HJW, and then claim that Wilson was responsible for the plan.   Wilson isn't even mentioned.
 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 07:52:24 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Melvyn Morrow


May not be related to the USA, but it relates to the word Laid Out.

An article from The Scotsman Newspaper from July 1879 clearly used the words Laid Out re the design of a golf courses and went on to say that the preparation of the ground is already far advanced. Believe that defines the term 'laid out' as that of designing the courses. This article refers to a course at Ladybank recently mentioned on another thread.





Jim_Kennedy

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MM,
What I like about that usage of "laid out" is that it's coupled with the fact that someone was actually playing the lay-out.

David,
You said: There you have it.  This whole thread is just some convoluted word game so TEPaul can make some desperate leap of logic to an untenable conclusion about Merion.

That was pretty clear by post #12.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Melvyn Morrow


Jim

The words 'preparation of the ground was far advanced' may be the reason for that.  The point being it is an old acceptable term to describe the course design which today is defined as encompassing the routing, Green, Tee locations and hazards.

DMoriarty

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Jim,  You are right, but it is funny to seem him keep at it after it is painfully obvious what is ongoing.  
_______________________________

Melvyn,

Thanks for that.  It is pertinent to the US, I think.

______________________________

TomM and Neil,

I have seen very few examples where the verb "to lay out" is used to refer to a course that has been planned on paper but not been arranged, at least roughly on the ground.    

I've seen references to laying out a plan, and references to layout plans, planning a layout, and proposal to lay out, but do you have any early examples where "laying out a golf course" entailed planning it on paper only, without any sort of arrangement or staking it out of the ground?   If so, I'd like to see them. I may have seen a few, but not many.   I cannot recall any right now.  
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 07:29:55 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim_Kennedy

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MM,
The English actually speak better English than we do, it's more precise and leaves less to question. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

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David
Since this is a Merion thread in disguise an apropos example would be Barker's sketch of the proposed lay out of the course at Merion.

DMoriarty

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David
Since this is a Merion thread in disguise an apropos example would be Barker's sketch of the proposed lay out of the course at Merion.

Yes I used that example above because he calls it a "proposed layout."  He could have just as easily called it a "layout plan."  But I don't think he ever would have said at that point, before anything was done on the ground, that he had "laid out" the golf course. The course may have been plan or proposed, but it wasn't yet laid out.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Melvyn Morrow


David

If you are talking about guys from Scotland then I think it should be noted as that was the language of the time.

DMoriarty

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Not sure what you mean, Melvyn.    I think the example you produced is consistent with my understanding.  H.H. Barker was English.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dale Jackson

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In the Seattle Times on November 9, 1913, A.V. Macan wrote about the (then) Colwood Golf and Country Club, "Captain W. Chambers and myself were invited to lay out the course."
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Neil_Crafter

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Personally I wouldn't call 1931 as modern, but I suppose it is more modern than 1911. Everything is relative!

TEPaul

Neil:

I wouldn't call 1931 modern either and it is relative. As I mentioned in the opening post of this thread I was thinking basically about the last decade of the 19th century and perhaps the first 2-3 decades of the 20th.

I have never exactly tried to find the first mention of "routing" in golf architecture and your example is the earliest one I'm aware of.


Melvyn:

And thank you for providing that example of the term "laid out" with Ladybank and OTM in 1879. Tom MacWood mentioned that 1890 was the earliest he was aware of for that term but he did not give an actual example of where it was used as you did. When one considers the evolution of golf architecture in the 19th century, yours is significantly earlier than his date.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 07:52:01 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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In the Seattle Times on November 9, 1913, A.V. Macan wrote about the (then) Colwood Golf and Country Club, "Captain W. Chambers and myself were invited to lay out the course."

Dale
Is that Captain Chambers still a mystery man?

Dale Jackson

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He is indeed!
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen