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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« on: May 31, 2012, 09:51:18 PM »
On TV today, Jack said, "Fast golf is more fun" - he was talking about firm and fast conditions (not pace of play).

It seems that everybody important "gets it" when it comes to the desirability for firm and fast.    So why then do we see so many courses playing soft and slow?

(I'm not talking about weather-caused wetness - I'm talking about the wall-to-wall slogfest many courses put forth.)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2012, 10:59:42 PM »
On TV today, Jack said, "Fast golf is more fun" - he was talking about firm and fast conditions (not pace of play).

It seems that everybody important "gets it" when it comes to the desirability for firm and fast.    So why then do we see so many courses playing soft and slow?

(I'm not talking about weather-caused wetness - I'm talking about the wall-to-wall slogfest many courses put forth.)

Because the problem is everybody's WAAAAAAY too focused on the "fast" part of the equation.(often at the expense of firm)
If I'm reading this right, Jack didn't say "firm" and fast, just fast.
That's hardly progress
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2012, 11:27:37 PM »
Dan, I think more of it has to do with weather than we often realize.

In the summer heat, it's not as simple as just turning off the sprinklers in much of the US. When it's hot, many courses need water to survive. There's a limit to how much you can push bentgrass in the transition zone, for instance.

I grew up in Kentucky but moved to Wisconsin a few years ago. I remember being puzzled by the fact that greens didn't always hold approach shots like the ones in KY did. Eventually I realized that Wisconsin's cooler weather allowed them to put less water on greens, and in turn keep them firmer. Now that I've moved back to the Ohio Valley, it's frustrating to always be playing on soggy greens when the weather gets nice, but that's the reality of keeping greens alive in 90+ degree weather.

I doubt, in this economy, that courses are looking to water more than they need to. While some courses are stuck in a neverending pursuit of "lush," a lot of them just do what they can to keep the grass alive.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2012, 12:00:20 AM »
Dan,

Perhaps the answer to your question lies within the following question.

Would you gravitate toward fast & Firm and the discoloration associated with same if your membership was focused on how your course looked and was manicured ?

Would you risk your job by going against member expectations ?

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2012, 12:34:13 AM »
It is about more than the look.  Firm and fast greens are exponentially more difficult than soft greens.  An iron shot needs to be hit solidly to stay on a green.  Iron shots from the rough may need to be played deliberately short.  Missing on the short side can mean that the best pitch is often to the middle of the green rather than at the hole.  Putts roll off the green.  Scores go up.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2012, 05:18:39 AM »
That is actually the first time I remember hearing Jack Nicklaus talk about golf being fun.

Maybe he is finally learning to enjoy the game -- or at least realizing that's why most other people play.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2012, 06:50:44 AM »
Patrick - good point.  But I just don't get why a green committee would go for "slow" conditions.

I was a member at Riverside in Portland from 1987 - 1993.  Summers in Portland are very dry, but the super kept the course as wet as if it was January.  Balls routinely plugged and the course was a slog.

And I've seen it here in Philly too - yes, we get our summer rains from thunderstorms, which can be very localized.  But, come on, one course is fast and another 1 mile away was so darn slow and soggy.  Somebody is drinking from another flavor of kool aid!

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2012, 08:46:34 AM »
Tom:

Here are some excerpts from Jack's interview on Wednesday at the Memorial:

"The game for the average golfer needs to be faster, take less time, needs to be cheaper, and needs to be easier," Nicklaus said. "Those are contradictory to the Tour. I'm not sure how we solve that problem."

"I'm probably as much a culprit as anybody. We do a golf course, and most people will say, 'Jack, we want to have a chance to maybe someday play a PGA or a U.S. Open on this golf course.' Well, I've got to do a golf course that's going to fit that level. Well, the average golfer can't play that golf course because it's just too darned difficult."

"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2012, 08:53:59 AM »
I guess with age and diminishing golfing skills Jack Nicklaus is starting to view golf like the rest of us mortals.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2012, 09:04:28 AM »
I guess with age and diminishing golfing skills Jack Nicklaus is starting to view golf like the rest of us mortals.

Matt:  Maybe in another ten years, Jack will be able to relate to my game.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2012, 09:24:28 AM »
With all due respect to Mr. Nicklaus, his statement that he is "as much of a culprit as anybody" is, IMO, a colossal understatement.

Arguably, he has done as much to make golf slower, more difficult, and more expensive than anybody who ever lived.  Between the way he went about playing the game and the courses he has built, his impact on the nature of the current state of the game is seismic.  I don't condemn him for that, but I think it is factual. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Richard Crumb

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 09:41:24 AM »
We see lush, green courses on TV every week and most folks assume that that is what good golf courses have to look like.  Personally, I can't stand playing on spongy fairways.  Give me hard and fast and even if it includes some brown, and I'm a happy golfer.  Jack must be feeling a bit mortal these days.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 04:40:48 PM »
Quote
"Jack, we want to have a chance to maybe someday play a PGA or a U.S. Open on this golf course.' Well, I've got to do a golf course that's going to fit that level. Well, the average golfer can't play that golf course because it's just too darned difficult."

I find it hard to believe that the owner of Idaho Club told him they want to hold any type of significant tournament there someday, much less a professional event.  Its far too remote, and nowhere to put spectators on many of the holes.

So it begs the question of why he felt the need to create such a ball buster course out there...which is easily the hardest course I've ever played.

I'm calling complete BS on this one!!

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2012, 05:57:28 PM »
Quote
"Jack, we want to have a chance to maybe someday play a PGA or a U.S. Open on this golf course.' Well, I've got to do a golf course that's going to fit that level. Well, the average golfer can't play that golf course because it's just too darned difficult."

I find it hard to believe that the owner of Idaho Club told him they want to hold any type of significant tournament there someday, much less a professional event.  Its far too remote, and nowhere to put spectators on many of the holes.

So it begs the question of why he felt the need to create such a ball buster course out there...which is easily the hardest course I've ever played.

I'm calling complete BS on this one!!

You're assuming that the only reason Jack would build a difficult course is for that reason, and that's not what he said at all.

From the photo tour I've seen and knowing the area a bit, it seems like any course on that property was bound to be a difficult one. Where it's not rocky and hilly it's a mess of bogs and water. Such ground conditions don't generally yield easy courses. I suspect the developer and Jack were both quite aware of that going in, whether anyone harbored any harebrained ideas about tournaments or not.

In other words, sometimes Jack builds difficult courses because there's a real chance of it becoming a tournament venue (say, Dove Mountain or Benton Harbor), sometimes he builds a difficult course because that's the dictate of the land and/or the client (idaho Club, it would seem) and sometimes he builds relatively mild courses on land that certainly could have resulted in a difficult course (both courses at Superstition Mtn).

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2012, 06:39:05 PM »
Shezzzzam that jack really broke a news story there

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golden Bear: "(Firm and) Fast golf is more fun"
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2012, 08:01:16 PM »
Does golf at Bandon represent the golf ground conditions are firm but really not that fast?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

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