[Carl Rogers]

I keep thinking about context.

If you buy (big picture I mean) into the over the top Mike Strantz design, then you accept blindness as part of the package.

If any of like partially and subtlely obscure shot making in a part of the world where you would not think you could have them, the Riverfront is the course.

Carl

I think its the other way around.  If you like blind shots you will probably like Strantz courses.

Ciao 

I will keep to my original thesis., but thanks.  Strantz is a unique experience.  Bandon is a unique experience.

Are there commonly known blind shot holes that are part of bad holes?

[Sean_A]

I keep thinking about context.

If you buy (big picture I mean) into the over the top Mike Strantz design, then you accept blindness as part of the package.

If any of like partially and subtlely obscure shot making in a part of the world where you would not think you could have them, the Riverfront is the course.

Carl

I think its the other way around.  If you like blind shots you will probably like Strantz courses.

Ciao 

I will keep to my original thesis., but thanks.  Strantz is a unique experience.  Bandon is a unique experience.

Are there commonly known blind shot holes that are part of bad holes?

Carl

I don't see Strantz as uniique.  All he did was embrace old-time architecture to an extreme for modern tastes. 

I am not sure I know of many bad blind holes (but there must be some) - only bad circumstances surrounding blind holes which tend to make people blame the blindness.  The best example I can think of off-hand is Cruden Bay's 15th.  The problem (so far as I see it) could be solved if the rough on the left dune was kept under control.  As it is now, the hole can play very long blindly over a dune and tons of lost ball rough.  Even if they could create a good bail out right so folks could play the hole as a dogleg two-shotter it would be better.  I am not overly keen on Prestwick's 5th, but I wouldn't go so far as to say its a bad - just an indifferent one.

Ciao

[JJShanley]

There's nothing more suspenseful in golf than smoking a shot on what looks like a perfect line, and then waiting in anticipation as you crest the top of the hill to find out where it finished.

Blind shots are great in small doses.

Something got me thinking about the challenge of the blind shot, whether as the only way to play a hole, or because your previous shot ended up in the boonies.


Jason makes a great point here.  I played a course in Edinburgh which had a bunch of blind approach shots on the first nine.  You might have known that you'd struck the ball well, you might have an inclination that the ball flight against the horizon looked good in comparison to your previous efforts, but you had a three-four minute wait to find out how you'd actually done.  This worked especially well in match-play.


I wonder, however, if the blind shot, whether you see any of the flag or not, tests the golfer mentally.  Do we need an actual target for our endeavors (a flag, maybe a drop dead date to finish one's doctoral dissertation  ) to feel better about ourselves.  I don't play as many blind holes anymore, but I recall the challenge involving picking out a target less directly related to LZ (like a cloud) and just feeling the fear, but doing it anyway.


I love the Redan at Angel's Crossing for exactly this reason. 

[Doug Siebert]

I like blind holes, but holes that are completely blind in all situations should be used very judiciously. I'm almost tempted to say they should only be ones that have been around forever like say Himalayas at Prestwick, but I guess I shouldn't limit the possibility that modern architects can do one that works (assuming they can get past the liability concerns Tom Doak often brings up for stuff like this)

I prefer holes that blind but only from certain spots or that offer you a look so you can determine your line. I saw a really good example of the latter at the Midwest Mashie last fall, on the 6th hole at Town and Country. The tee shot is wide open to a fairway that bends right, and ends around the 300 yard mark, where there's a steep rough covered uphill slope and then the remaining distance of the 470ish yard par 4. If you drive up close to that slope your second shot is totally blind, you can see the tops of a few trees behind the green but not the flag. However while you are walking up to your ball you have the opportunity to see and plan the line of your shot.

Dan Kelly pointed this out to us and had us walk off to the side where we could find our lines, and I was able to relate my desired line to a couple tire tracks from where someone (probably ill advisedly) drove a cart up that slope and a tree behind the pin bordering the edge of the course. My shot was "blind" but I knew where to aim - overcoming the blindness is just a mental exercise at that point.

I'm a big fan of blindness as a penalty for playing offline, instead of a hard penalty like water, OB or ball eating rough. This allows a chance for recovery but the poor angle combined with blindness puts a high bar on the skill required for a successful recovery. That's golf in its most ideal form as I see it - the possibility of recovery from one's mistakes always exists, but the bigger the mistake the better your recovery is forced to be if you want to avoid losing a stroke.

[David Ober]

I love blind approaches, but do not care for blind tee shots.


There is something really cool about walking up to a blind green, knowing that you hit a pretty good shot and anticipating seeing the ball close, that heightens the whole experience. To me, that feeling of heightened senses is what golf is all about....

[Thomas Dai]

A shot that may be blind to a 5ft tall lady may not be blind to a 6' 6" man (or vice versa).
Atb

[archie_struthers]

  ...............................




Love the concept , fear the danger and litigation!

[Michael Whitaker]

Blind shots can be exciting as you anticipate your result.


I have no issue with blind shots on a members course. But, I do not like blind shots on resort courses where the players rarely visit. These type shots at resorts cause too much confusion and delay.

[Sean_A]

Blind shots can be exciting as you anticipate your result.


I have no issue with blind shots on a members course. But, I do not like blind shots on resort courses where the players rarely visit. These type shots at resorts cause too much confusion and delay.

Whitty


I would argue the other side of the coin...golfers expect too much information and are willing to delay the game to obtain it.  Many are not savvy enough to read the tea leaves and use experience as guide.


Ciao

[PCCraig]

Are there any scratch players here who can honestly say they love blind shots?  Or has the scorecard and pencil mentality permeated your soul...

I'm not scratch, but I'm close. And I love blind shots. My home course has about 5 of them.

[PCCraig]

I like blind holes, but holes that are completely blind in all situations should be used very judiciously. I'm almost tempted to say they should only be ones that have been around forever like say Himalayas at Prestwick, but I guess I shouldn't limit the possibility that modern architects can do one that works (assuming they can get past the liability concerns Tom Doak often brings up for stuff like this)

I prefer holes that blind but only from certain spots or that offer you a look so you can determine your line. I saw a really good example of the latter at the Midwest Mashie last fall, on the 6th hole at Town and Country. The tee shot is wide open to a fairway that bends right, and ends around the 300 yard mark, where there's a steep rough covered uphill slope and then the remaining distance of the 470ish yard par 4. If you drive up close to that slope your second shot is totally blind, you can see the tops of a few trees behind the green but not the flag. However while you are walking up to your ball you have the opportunity to see and plan the line of your shot.

Dan Kelly pointed this out to us and had us walk off to the side where we could find our lines, and I was able to relate my desired line to a couple tire tracks from where someone (probably ill advisedly) drove a cart up that slope and a tree behind the pin bordering the edge of the course. My shot was "blind" but I knew where to aim - overcoming the blindness is just a mental exercise at that point.

I'm a big fan of blindness as a penalty for playing offline, instead of a hard penalty like water, OB or ball eating rough. This allows a chance for recovery but the poor angle combined with blindness puts a high bar on the skill required for a successful recovery. That's golf in its most ideal form as I see it - the possibility of recovery from one's mistakes always exists, but the bigger the mistake the better your recovery is forced to be if you want to avoid losing a stroke.

Thanks, Doug.


The 6th hole at T&C is a pretty neat one. Originally it was a par-5, but due to modern technology it has become a 4 on the scorecard (I don't know when exactly). It's a hard par-4, for sure, and the slope that you describe is a very severe one. But the second shot there is an exhilarating one, especially when you hit a flush mid or long iron and the ball still only carries the slope by a few feet. And anytime you find the putting surface you are typically very happy.


I have posted this here before, but for a while there were plans to "tear" the big slope down on #6 in an effort to rid the hole of it's blindness. Thankfully last year that plan was nixed in large part thanks to the guidance and significant knowledge of Jeff Mingay.

[Garland Bayley]

Blind shots can be exciting as you anticipate your result.


I have no issue with blind shots on a members course. But, I do not like blind shots on resort courses where the players rarely visit. These type shots at resorts cause too much confusion and delay.

I believe Ran's review points out 6 or 7 blind shots on resort course Black Mesa in his review.

[Garland Bayley]

Blind shots can be exciting as you anticipate your result.


I have no issue with blind shots on a members course. But, I do not like blind shots on resort courses where the players rarely visit. These type shots at resorts cause too much confusion and delay.

Whitty


I would argue the other side of the coin...golfers expect too much information and are willing to delay the game to obtain it.  Many are not savvy enough to read the tea leaves and use experience as guide.


Ciao

I don't expect too much information, and don't delay the game to obtain it. Therefore, my one day at Black Mesa was less than fully satisfying.

[Doug Siebert]

The 6th hole at T&C is a pretty neat one. Originally it was a par-5, but due to modern technology it has become a 4 on the scorecard (I don't know when exactly). It's a hard par-4, for sure, and the slope that you describe is a very severe one. But the second shot there is an exhilarating one, especially when you hit a flush mid or long iron and the ball still only carries the slope by a few feet. And anytime you find the putting surface you are typically very happy.


I have posted this here before, but for a while there were plans to "tear" the big slope down on #6 in an effort to rid the hole of it's blindness. Thankfully last year that plan was nixed in large part thanks to the guidance and significant knowledge of Jeff Mingay.

When I read that I was thinking about how the hole would have played back in the old days as a three shotter. It kind of reminds of what the second shot at Prestwick's Cardinal would have been like back in the day. Hitting a fairway that's well above you and completely blind. Both would have been excellent three shotters, and remained excellent even now that they are easily played as 4s - the only difference being your blind second is now going for the green.

If you lay up on that upper fairway on the Cardinal, is your third shot blind as well? I think the green is about at the level of the lower fairway, is that about right? I've played that hole a few times but always hit my second at the green and walked straight there around the Cardinal, so I've never walked that upper fairway level. Given how many other shots are blind at Prestwick, I have to think that one was probably blind as well, unless you hit pretty far out right close to where that fairway would end (does it end or does it continue down the slope, I guess I don't know that either...)

[MCirba]

How is your laser GPS-thingy supposed to locate the distance to the flagstick and that little reflector to give you exact distance on a blind approach?   

Sheesh, what are you trying to do, introduce uncertainty and adventure?   

[Sean_A]

Blind shots can be exciting as you anticipate your result.


I have no issue with blind shots on a members course. But, I do not like blind shots on resort courses where the players rarely visit. These type shots at resorts cause too much confusion and delay.

Whitty


I would argue the other side of the coin...golfers expect too much information and are willing to delay the game to obtain it.  Many are not savvy enough to read the tea leaves and use experience as guide.


Ciao

I don't expect too much information, and don't delay the game to obtain it. Therefore, my one day at Black Mesa was less than fully satisfying.

Garland


Thats fine, it only means you are not fully on board with blindness.  That isn't a problem because few of us are 100% on board with blindness.  Nearly all of us have disclaimers and preconditions for blind shots to be of the really fun sort.


Doug


Cardinal's green is above the fairway for the tee shot, but I don't think by that many feet.  The third after a lay-up is often blind. 


Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

I don't expect too much information, and don't delay the game to obtain it. Therefore, my one day at Black Mesa was less than fully satisfying.

Garland


Thats fine, it only means you are not fully on board with blindness.  That isn't a problem because few of us are 100% on board with blindness.  Nearly all of us have disclaimers and preconditions for blind shots to be of the really fun sort.

...

No, it means that Black Mesa won't put up aiming poles to aid the walking golfer, because he expects him to be in his cart looking at the GPS screen.

[Sean_A]

I don't expect too much information, and don't delay the game to obtain it. Therefore, my one day at Black Mesa was less than fully satisfying.

Garland


Thats fine, it only means you are not fully on board with blindness.  That isn't a problem because few of us are 100% on board with blindness.  Nearly all of us have disclaimers and preconditions for blind shots to be of the really fun sort.

...

No, it means that Black Mesa won't put up aiming poles to aid the walking golfer, because he expects him to be in his cart looking at the GPS screen.

As I said, you are not fully on board with blindness and like blind holes to meet certain conditions. There is no shame in admitting this  [size=78%] [/size]


Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

I don't expect too much information, and don't delay the game to obtain it. Therefore, my one day at Black Mesa was less than fully satisfying.

Garland


Thats fine, it only means you are not fully on board with blindness.  That isn't a problem because few of us are 100% on board with blindness.  Nearly all of us have disclaimers and preconditions for blind shots to be of the really fun sort.

...

No, it means that Black Mesa won't put up aiming poles to aid the walking golfer, because he expects him to be in his cart looking at the GPS screen.

As I said, you are not fully on board with blindness and like blind holes to meet certain conditions. There is no shame in admitting this 


Ciao

What blind holes in the U.K. don't provide aiming poles? West Cornwall does, Perranporth does, Royal County Down does, ...
I'm not on board with cartball tracks that ignore the needs of golfers as the USGA says "golf is a walking game".

[Tim Gallant]

Overall, I really enjoy blind shots, and feel I play the holes better when it has a blind approach. I focus more on the markerand subsequently usually make a good swing.

[Sean_A]

I don't expect too much information, and don't delay the game to obtain it. Therefore, my one day at Black Mesa was less than fully satisfying.

Garland


Thats fine, it only means you are not fully on board with blindness.  That isn't a problem because few of us are 100% on board with blindness.  Nearly all of us have disclaimers and preconditions for blind shots to be of the really fun sort.

...

No, it means that Black Mesa won't put up aiming poles to aid the walking golfer, because he expects him to be in his cart looking at the GPS screen.

As I said, you are not fully on board with blindness and like blind holes to meet certain conditions. There is no shame in admitting this 


Ciao

What blind holes in the U.K. don't provide aiming poles? West Cornwall does, Perranporth does, Royal County Down does, ...
I'm not on board with cartball tracks that ignore the needs of golfers as the USGA says "golf is a walking game".

So your point is blindness is okay if you are not totally blind?  Among other things, it seems reasonable to me if clubs want to keep the game moving.  But then I am not totally on board with shots.  I have a few caveats which I think are important for blind shots to be at their most fun.


Burnham's 15th is completely blind from the tee...no marker.  Same for the 18th if one chooses to hit past the visible area.  Prestwick has blind shots without guidance...the 5th is quite famous...same for the second on #4.  Painswick is loaded with blind shots.  TOC as well.  Properly blind holes do exist and in abundance.


Ciao


Ciao   

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,

though many UK courses do provide some sort of aiming aide on blind shots there are hundreds that do not. As most of these are members clubs the vast majority of the players have local knowledge to help them.

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

though many UK courses do provide some sort of aiming aide on blind shots there are hundreds that do not. As most of these are members clubs the vast majority of the players have local knowledge to help them.

Jon

And this all started with short visits to resort destinations. My point was that resort destinations should provide aid to the golfer for blind shots as repeat plays are not so common.

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,

I was giving a bit of balance to your post #69 where you use the examples of West Cornwall, Perranporth and Royal County Down all of which are members clubs. Whilst I agree with you about the need for marker posts for them, if you want to talk about resort destinations then maybe it would be better to use some examples that are actually resort courses.

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

I was giving a bit of balance to your post #69 where you use the examples of West Cornwall, Perranporth and Royal County Down all of which are members clubs. Whilst I agree with you about the need for marker posts for them, if you want to talk about resort destinations then maybe it would be better to use some examples that are actually resort courses.

Jon

Once again, it started with Black Mesa, which is not a members club. I hardly know the difference between member and nonmember courses in the UK. I just listed the first few that came to mind in the UK.

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