[Garland Bayley]

Can someone please explain why BANDON should want to allow cart play?

Because of compassion for those unable to walk 18 holes

Just like the tony clubs should have compassion for those that have not been able to make a bazillion dollars and do appropriate womb diving?

[Cliff Hamm]

Jason..they are required to make accommodations.  ADA requires reasonable accommodations.  The key is reasonable.  An ambiguous word that keeps the lawyers employed and the courts busy.

The question of trust is a tough one.  Bandon is unique but any time a golfer has a court they must be trusted to obey the cart signs.  Don't get too close to the greens, par 3 only cart path only, etc.

I'm not sure that Bandon is so unique that a caddy needs to be required.  Is it possible this is just another way to limit cart use even when legitimate for the disabled?  I dk.  I do know that an extra $100 for someone to tell me how to drive a cart seems excessive.

[Dan King]

Cliff Hamm writes:
Because of compassion for those unable to walk 18 holes

And yet you have no compassion for those that want a single U.S. golf resort where they don't have to fight with cartballers.

Cheers,
Dan King

Ye're makin' a great mistake if ye think the gemme is meant for the shots. The gemme is meant for walkin'.
 --Shivas Irons

[Cliff Hamm]

Can someone please explain why BANDON should want to allow cart play?

Because of compassion for those unable to walk 18 holes

Just like the tony clubs should have compassion for those that have not been able to make a bazillion dollars and do appropriate womb diving?

Not sure what you mean by womb diving....  Again, the analogy is bogus.  We're talking disabilities versus access to exclusive clubs.  Would you rather not be accepted into ANGC or not be able to walk? They are not the same.

 That is not to say that I believe that the American private golf club model is ideal.  But that is a separate conversation.  I just don't get the connection between private exclusiveness and carts for the disabled.

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff Hamm writes:
Because of compassion for those unable to walk 18 holes

And yet you have no compassion for those that want a single U.S. golf resort where they don't have to fight with cartballers.

Cheers,
Dan King

Ye're makin' a great mistake if ye think the gemme is meant for the shots. The gemme is meant for walkin'.
 --Shivas Irons

Dan..I'm not sure what you don't get about people with disabilities having access to carts.  We're not talking "cartballers".  We're talking that those unable to walk should be able to use a cart.  Why is that so controversial?

[Jason Thurman]

Cliff, my understanding is that courses are required to provide accessible golf carts if they also provide golf carts to players without disabilities. I'm not aware that a course which doesn't provide carts to anyone is required to provide carts for players with disabilities.

I agree, though, that it's nice for Bandon to provide carts for people with disabilities. They do this already. So what are we talking about, exactly?

[Tim_Weiman]

Dan King:

I find it frightening that people don't see your point. Those who desire a cart are accommodated almost everywhere one can go, but if someone wants to create a place like Bandon, those who don't like it scream discrimination, even when a genuine medical situation is exempt fom the walking only rule.

You are right. The elephant's nose isn't just inside the tent, he has torn it down altogether.

Mackenzie was right. Walking a golf course is the healthy thing to do. Kudos to MK for creating and maintaining one of the few places that promote it.

[Stephen Davis]

I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.

[Sam Morrow]

I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.

People love to bicker on GCA, it's the ultimate internet dick measuring contest.

[Stephen Davis]

I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.

People love to bicker on GCA, it's the ultimate internet dick measuring contest.

Hahaha! That made me chuckle! Thanks for making my night.

[Dan King]

Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan..I'm not sure what you don't get about people with disabilities having access to carts.  We're not talking "cartballers".  We're talking that those unable to walk should be able to use a cart.  Why is that so controversial?

People with disabilities can play at Bandon, so obviously you are not talking about them. I know they can because I've seen them play. You keep asking what it takes, but are unwilling to even make a phone call to find out. Your lack of interest in doing anything ahead of time reduces the amount of compassion I have for you.  I doubt other people with disabilities feel they should get to demand a cart whenever they want without making prearrangements.

If they open up the cart barn to anyone who wants a cart, or is too tired to play a second 18 or don't want to be too tired to party at night, then they might as well put in the cart paths. You keep saying you are not arguing for those, but only people like you. But come up with a rule that they can apply to you that will not apply to those less deserving and still keeps the carts down to a bare minimum.

This is not my first rodeo (hopefully that isn't considered an analogy.) I know for a fact once a course liberalizes a cart policy, they become a cartball course. It has happened countless times. We have decades of experience and aren't anywhere near as naïve as we were years ago.

If Bandon were to become a cartball course I will stop making the drive. Where is your compassion for me?

Cheers,
Dan King

Ye see, tha' man got to be famous heer for his walkin'. Twas said tha' if ye played along wi' him for very long ye'd get the spirit o' it yersel' and learn to enjoy each and every step. 'Twas said tha' he sometimes forgot his shots, the walkin' got to be so good. Had to be reminded by his caddie to hit the ball.
 --Shivas Irons

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff, my understanding is that courses are required to provide accessible golf carts if they also provide golf carts to players without disabilities. I'm not aware that a course which doesn't provide carts to anyone is required to provide carts for players with disabilities.

I agree, though, that it's nice for Bandon to provide carts for people with disabilities. They do this already. So what are we talking about, exactly?

The American with Disabilities Act requires reasonable accommodations for places of public accommodation.  That includes all public courses but also private courses if the public has access to any extent such as those that have outings, tournaments, etc.  The reasonable accommodation for Bandon is to provide carts.  My 'problem' is that they seem, I do not know for sure, to put up too many hurdles - caddy required, not enough carts so you must have advance notice.  In essence Bandon must allow carts for those with disabilities.  It is the law.

[Sam Morrow]

I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.

People love to bicker on GCA, it's the ultimate internet dick measuring contest.

Hahaha! That made me chuckle! Thanks for making my night.

Sadly it's the truth.

[Dan King]

Stephen Davis writes:
I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.

I'm quoting Cliff's entire post.  Read what he wrote and tell me if he wants the status quo or significant changes to Bandon policy:

I am not as delighted with Mr. Keiser as many here seem to be.  If I am wrong please correct me.  Bandon provides a limited number of carts for those with disabilities.  So, it is suggested that you arrange for a cart well in advance or you may not get one despite having a tee time.  Nonsense!  they should provide enough carts as needed.

I have been told that it requires much more than a simple doctor's note.  I know they will not accept a disability certificate for an automobile.  I am not clear on what is expected, but I do believe it must be submitted well in advance.  Many, many hurdles.  I also know that at Cabot Links you will be required to take a caddy if they will give you a cart for being disabled.  Oh great, now I must pay for a cart and also for a caddy that I don't want...Why should the disabled have to pay more, with the exception of the cost of the cart?

This is not to mention those with so called minor disabilities.  I am 61 and have Metatarsalgia.  Sounds serious, huh?  Not really pain in the ball of my foot when walking distances.  I can make it 9 holes with pain.  After that it is excruciating.  I do not consider this significant enough to be an ADA disability.  Would Bandon allow me to use a cart for this purpose?  I'd like to know as I am hopefully going to try to play as a single late this summer.  Think they'll mind if I rest after every shot?

I don't have the whole answer.  I do know that anyone with a auto disability placard should not have to jump thru hoops.  They should be able to arrive at the course and have  a cart.  Advanced reservations not required.  They should not have to also have a caddy.  I also think that perhaps for anyone over 65 a cart should be allowed.  No answers, but the current policy is not a good one.

p.s. I would love to know how many of the walker extremists have had any pain walking and their age

Cheers,
Dan King

I noticed ye hardly pay attention to the walkin' part. Well that's too bad.  Not many people do. "tis a shame, 'tis a rotten shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin', ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ye're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn' ye say?
 --Shivas Irons

[Stephen Davis]

I think the interesting thing is is Cliff is arguing over hearsay. His argument states that he has heard that it is more difficult than just having a note. However, it may just be that simple. I know that was the case for Chambers Bay. When I took my dad to Chambers Bay, I enquired about what was necessary for him to ride a cart and their response was "we are like Bandon in that you must have a doctors note explaining the reason he is unable to walk. Then you must have a caddie drive the cart, so the cart fee is the same as the caddy fee." If Bandon is like Chambers, which I was led to believe it is, then there are not two fees, just the one.

I have played Bandon when the group in front of us was using a cart. So it is not impossibly difficult as some have made it out to be.

[Cliff Hamm]

You were absolutely correct. In an ideal world I would love to see them expand their cart policy I would like to see carts allowed for those with lesser disabilities but only for those who are unable to walk a golf course.

I am not talking about those unable to walk 36.. I am not talking about those who only want to play cart ball. iam talking about those in the gray area, who do not have a disability serious enough to meet ADA requirements, what are still unable to walk the golf course.

I am also talking about those with disabilities who are required to pay a cart fee as well as a caddie fee. This just doesn't seem right.  It also does not seem right that those with disabilities must arrange for a cart so far in advance of when they will play. Yes, you may not agree, but I do feel cart should be available at all times for those with disabilities.

I stand corrected if it is only the caddy fee with te  cart. I still, however, don't understand why one should have to pay more than a cart fee because of the disability.

[Dan King]

I really don't want to quote your entire post. Anybody want to see what other brilliance comes from Cliff, just scroll a little bit up.

Cliff Hamm writes:
In essence Bandon must allow carts for those with disabilities.  It is the law.

And it does. The ADA goes to a lot of trouble to define disabilities. You admit you do not have an ADA disability, yet you want Bandon to not just supply you with a cart, but ensure they always have a cart waiting for you on the chance you will show up.

Cheers,
Dan King

You play with some guys and they take two hours to watch 60 minutes. But everybody's different. That's why they make wallpaper. I hurry everything. I live in the fast lane. I'm the fastest eating person in the world. In my house, the last one to finish did the dishes, and I never did the dishes.
 --Chi Chi Rodriguez

[John Kavanaugh]

Cliff,

I play 95% of my rounds in a cart. As the only avid cart rider on this site I can assure you, that handicapped or able bodied, we can not be trusted.  Hey, if you have never played Bandon pay for the caddie as I am sure he will do more than just babysit.

[Cliff Hamm]

This will be my last reply but just to clarify. The inability to walk a golf course would not necessarily be considered a disability under the American with disabilities act. One would need a cart, however, obviously to play Bandon under those circumstances.

I might add Dan that your sarcasm in referring to my post as brilliant is most appreciated.  it is those type of  comments that in my opinion have led to this site not being what it once was.

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff,

I play 95% of my rounds in a cart. As the only avid cart rider on this site I can assure you, that handicapped or able bodied, we can not be trusted.  Hey, if you have never played Bandon pay for the caddie as I am sure he will do more than just babysit.

I don't know that I would consider myself an avid cart rider  but it is what it is.  So you are not alone. I will certainly give your words of advice for a caddie serious consideration.  How can I not? I am an ex caddie and my son continues to Caddie

[Jason Thurman]

Cliff, here's my source on ADA requirements for carts. See third bullet point on page 2 and last paragraph on page 4. It states very clearly that accessible carts need only be provided when carts are provided for able-bodied golfers. http://www.mobilitygolf.com/advocacy/2008_TITLE_III.pdf

It may not be the best source of truth, and if you have a better source please share it. But based on what I've seen, carts are not required for people with disabilities unless they're also available to people without them. Otherwise, I can think of several very inexpensive "honor jar" courses that are operating illegally.

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff, here's my source on ADA requirements for carts. See third bullet point on page 2 and last paragraph on page 4. It states very clearly that accessible carts need only be provided when carts are provided for able-bodied golfers. http://www.mobilitygolf.com/advocacy/2008_TITLE_III.pdf

It may not be the best source of truth, and if you have a better source please share it. But based on what I've seen, carts are not required for people with disabilities unless they're also available to people without them. Otherwise, I can think of several very inexpensive "honor jar" courses that are operating illegally.

Jason.... Said I was not  going to reply or post on this thread anymore but your comments are well taken. I believe you're incorrect but don't know for sure. It's getting late but I will do some research.

[Dan King]

Cliff Hamm writes:
This will be my last reply

Attack and retreat. Guess I can say whatever I want now.  I can even use analogies.

I might add Dan that your sarcasm in referring to my post as brilliant is most appreciated.  it is those type of  comments that in my opinion have led to this site not being what it once was.

If you were still around I'd ask you if sarcasm is also on the list?

I've been around this site since day No. 1.  A healthy dose of sarcasm has always been part of this site. Also, while it is hardly civil behavior, calling someone's argument absurd without rebuttal has also been part of the site.

You are also holding up a fine tradition of attack and retreat.

Cheers,
Dan King

A child of five could understand this. Fetch me a child of five.
 --Groucho Marx

[Jud_T]

Cliff,

I don't see the issue.  

1.  Having to plan ahead for use of a cart- Almost everyone who plays at Bandon plans ahead.  It's in the middle of nowhere and the tee sheet is usually full months in advance.  This is the case at most GB&I clubs as I understand it.

2.  Having to take a caddie- This is my exact personal condition.  I can only walk the course without causing pain or injury to my knees and/or back by taking a caddie.  I can no longer carry or even use a pushcart.  The caddies are excellent.  A large majority of rounds at Bandon are played with caddies I believe.  If I'm concerned about the additional cost or the hassle there are thousands of other golf courses I can play instead, many of them good to excellent, including my club.  Bandon has four of the best courses in the world.  It's actually a bargain compared to many other high end resorts with famous courses; I don't expect it to be cheap.  Furthermore, as stated above, the courses have not been designed for carts beyond the minor turf wear of a few additional carts, around greens, transitions, etc.  So to require a caddie who knows exactly where a cart can and can't be driven doesn't seem at all onerous from the point of view of the resort and everyone who values Bandon as it is, without additional signage, paths, additional carts, etc.

[jeffwarne]

Jason..they are required to make accommodations.  ADA requires reasonable accommodations.  The key is reasonable.  An ambiguous word that keeps the lawyers employed and the courts busy.

The question of trust is a tough one.  Bandon is unique but any time a golfer has a court they must be trusted to obey the cart signs.  Don't get too close to the greens, par 3 only cart path only, etc.

I'm not sure that Bandon is so unique that a caddy needs to be required.  Is it possible this is just another way to limit cart use even when legitimate for the disabled?  I dk.  I do know that an extra $100 for someone to tell me how to drive a cart seems excessive.

This is where the slippery slope begins.
An accomodation(cart) is provided for those in need (as it should be)
but then there are players who feel another accomodation be made and they not be required to take a caddy.
Pretty soon you have signs and paths all over the place guiding the player who won't take a caddie but require a cart, cluttering up the experience for the people  who have had no accomodation made for them.
and don't think for second people know where to drive on a nonpathed,nonsigned links course.

Note:if truly disabled, the cart should be free-to mitigate the caddy fee requirement.

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