Should Bandon Allow Limited Cart Play?

[Greg Tallman]

Make carts "available" for an additional $125 per player after a certain time... say 4 hours before dark

[Adrian_Stiff]

No.  Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses.  No.

Wow, we had people in the UK that spoke like this up to the 1960s. Back to the question, I think if Bandon is doing well as it is then NO, if they would allow carts then they would probably double their business, hardly anyone over 45 can walk 72 holes over 2 days. If you take the view that people would like to play all the courses over a short 2 or 3 day period or indeed play them all twice, then the cost of getting to Bandon, staying eating and golfing all gets better value with the replay rates. 16 of us looked at going to Bandon and it got the NO because of the no carts. Its okay as long as they are doing okay as they are. It has some carts now so its merely a case of slightly widening the stance and as somene suggested allow them in a replay rate, with no paths it would need to be regulated to help protect the grasses but this could be done by using GPS and zoning off areas to regulate the wear.

[Michael George]

You have to designate only 1 course as the cart course for the day.  That way the authentic feel of an all-walking facility is preserved for those that want it - just avoid the 1 walking course that day.

[Carl Nichols]

Cartballers have so many choices, why do you need to screw-up some of the few courses in the world left for walking diehards.

Notwithstanding my self-centered interest in having carts available so that I could more easily play 10+ rounds in 5 days, I'm pretty sympathetic to the walking-only perspective.  But if you're going to say that carts would "screw-up" the courses, I think you need to say how.  Is it that paths would become necessary (that may be true, but I'm not sure it's necessarily true)?  Is it that the turf would  be worse?  Is it the vibe?  Or is it simply knowing that somewhere on the course with you, or even just somewhere at the resort, there's a cart? Or is it the probable evolution from limited cart use to unlimited use (which, in my view, is probably the best argument)?  

[John Kavanaugh]

Make carts "available" for an additional $125 per player after a certain time... say 4 hours before dark

 

I would have no problem with that fee if it were per person and included a forecaddie for each cart.  It would also be easy to modify a cart so the caddie could operate it from his perch back by the clubs.  This would greatly reduce the need for course modifications.

[Carl Nichols]

No.  Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses.  No.

Wow, we had people in the UK that spoke like this up to the 1960s. Back to the question, I think if Bandon is doing well as it is then NO, if they would allow carts then they would probably double their business, hardly anyone over 45 can walk 72 holes over 2 days. If you take the view that people would like to play all the courses over a short 2 or 3 day period or indeed play them all twice, then the cost of getting to Bandon, staying eating and golfing all gets better value with the replay rates. 16 of us looked at going to Bandon and it got the NO because of the no carts. Its okay as long as they are doing okay as they are. It has some carts now so its merely a case of slightly widening the stance and as somene suggested allow them in a replay rate, with no paths it would need to be regulated to help protect the grasses but this could be done by using GPS and zoning off areas to regulate the wear.

Adrian-
In the Swinley Forest thread I was suprised to see a picture with two carts in it (possibly for a single foursome, or perhaps two twosomes).  How many rounds get played using carts at the fairly high-end English courses . . . or is it impossible to generalize?

[JMEvensky]

Adrian,same question as Carl plus are the carts available at the request of members or guests (Americans)?

[Pete_Pittock]

I would like it if Bandon had limited cart play as I am seriously considering dropping out of my November group. Last year I was barely able to make all four rounds, with caddy.

I think that is a fair and legitimate problem. Being born in 1960 I am at the end of largest golfing demographic that will ever exist.  I doubt if I will ever visit Bandon again but if I do it will absolutely need to be in the next 10 years.  Us golfers are getting older and there are no replacements behind us to fill these tee sheets.  You can't expect a bunch of 60, 70 and 80 year olds to keep a public walking only resort functioning.

I'm taking a 72 year old to Dismal this week.  I could not take him to Bandon.  Not everyone is as lucky as me.

 Try 1945 here

[Garland Bayley]

No.  Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses.  No.

In all honesty, the double strap carry bag which promotes iron clicking would cure any yeast infection.  Now that the modern cart is equipped with a silent parking brake I find walkers more likely to be rude than cartballers.

How long are you going to keep this up? Irons have been clicking since long before anyone invented a double strap carry bag.

[Dan King]

Carl Nichols writes:
But if you're going to say that carts would "screw-up" the courses, I think you need to say how

I have said how.  If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow.  American's do not take kindly to being forbidden from doing something when they see others doing it. If you allow it on one course, or only certain times of the day, you are going to have golfers complaining it isn't available to them when and where they want it. Bandon will end up being similar to countless other courses, where the golf course collectors dominate the tee sheet. Right now cartballers know to stay away from Bandon and I like that.

Do cartballers really feel so insecure they have to ensure they can play 100 percent of the courses rather than 99 percent?  Why not just be happy with what you have?  You have many more choices than walkers.

Cheers,
Dan King

Maybe it's time to propose that golfers refuse to play courses where they are forced to ride. Now this idea has absolutely no chance of gaining ground because a generation of golfers is being raised who think that walking is the oddity. They'll read in some old golf magazine that former USGA president Sandy Tatum  once called golf by cart "cart-ball." And they will think, "who was that old fogy anyway?"
 --Lorne Rubenstein

[Sean_A]

No.  Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses.  No.

Wow, we had people in the UK that spoke like this up to the 1960s. Back to the question, I think if Bandon is doing well as it is then NO, if they would allow carts then they would probably double their business, hardly anyone over 45 can walk 72 holes over 2 days. If you take the view that people would like to play all the courses over a short 2 or 3 day period or indeed play them all twice, then the cost of getting to Bandon, staying eating and golfing all gets better value with the replay rates. 16 of us looked at going to Bandon and it got the NO because of the no carts. Its okay as long as they are doing okay as they are. It has some carts now so its merely a case of slightly widening the stance and as somene suggested allow them in a replay rate, with no paths it would need to be regulated to help protect the grasses but this could be done by using GPS and zoning off areas to regulate the wear.

Adrian-
In the Swinley Forest thread I was suprised to see a picture with two carts in it (possibly for a single foursome, or perhaps two twosomes).  How many rounds get played using carts at the fairly high-end English courses . . . or is it impossible to generalize?

Carl

Many member owned clubs will have a few or or so carts on hand.  They aren't in the least common, but I see plenty through the year on top courses - maybe 25 in total.  You have to remember that many older clubs may cross roads, parking lots or have very hilly sections which would all present insurance nightmares for carts - to the point where some clubs won't even bother getting into it.  Once you get into company owned clubs there are generally more carts available - may 8 or 12 or perhaps a few more.   If I had to guess the number of round in carts at member clubs I would say it is less than 1%.  It is very common to see guys hobbling around the course and it wouldn't occur to most to even think of taking a cart.   

Ciao

[Greg Tallman]

Rotating schedule where each day one course allowed carts for the first hour in the morning while the same day another course allowing carts beginning at 4 hours 30 minutes before dark.

-Cart golf is regular rate x1.75 ($400) inlcuding forecaddy as JK suggests
-No replay discount for cart riders (only walkers get this benefit)

You would open up the facility to "everyone" while limiting (and discouraging) those you would prefer not to see.

Not ideal but penalizing the carts riders while rewarding the walkers seems the only way to do it.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,same question as Carl plus are the carts available at the request of members or guests (Americans)?

Carl & JME - I think it does vary quite a bit. I am not 100% on this but the impression I get is that most UK courses do have some carts, though some may not for H & S grounds or just no paths (perhaps Painswick). I dont think Sunningdale (for instance) would have a big fleet. At my course we have 27 which in the UK is probably a big fleet, what happens is that on a weekend day when the members play, we might get 4 buggies out in every 100 rounds (8%). If we get visitors (we do 10000 annually), it can get up to all 27 buggies going out. My buggy rentals are probably 80% to visitors but our visitors are about 20% of our total rounds... I really dont know how common that is as a UK cross section but resorty type golf does tend to go hand in hand with carts, I do booking Stay and Play packages, 2 night stay + 3 rounds of golf and two courses I use do not have carts, several times the party will not go to that course because 1 member of say a party of 24 needs a cart, so that course misses out on 24 green fees. I know we are just talking about Bandon here, but in the commercial world carts are essential.

[William_G]

F carts! nuf said

try Bandon Preserve or Shortys

sit in a plane, sit in a car, sit in a shuttle, sit at the pub, but walk the course!, good heavens...sounds like this is getting to the entitlement stage at this point

[JMEvensky]

Adrian,thanks.

[Tim Johnson]

I was surprised since first visiting Scotland in 99 that on subsequent trips more carts were visible on the courses. My dad told me stories from around the mid 90 where it was near impossible to get a cart(my mother was handicapped but enjoyed driving the course in a cart, some courses were very considerate and would have a ranger drive the cart for her).

My thinking for the increase in carts was for the North Amercian tourist as they were accustomed to using carts.

As for Bandon, I completely agree with carts for medical purposes but otherwise, no carts. My dad is now 80 and hates using a cart. If he wants to do a second round, he starts eliminating clubs from his bag. As we get older(fatter), we shouldnt start looking for ways to accomodate our age but rather ways in which we can better our health....you know, like walking 18 holes instead of riding.

And kudos to Mac, I would have been crying at the turn if I had your old hips.

As for the clinking of the irons, they have been clinking since well before Balata balls. I actually love the sound of the clinking clubs as I walk the fairway. It is simple, if you are approaching a group merely put your right hand over the clubs and the clinking will stop. A guy on the 17th tee gave me a simple nod of the hat on the weekend when he noticed I did that while his mate was hitting.....I love golf!

[Terry Lavin]

F carts! nuf said

try Bandon Preserve or Shortys

sit in a plane, sit in a car, sit in a shuttle, sit at the pub, but walk the course!, good heavens...sounds like this is getting to the entitlement stage at this point

A walking Nazi is just as appealing as a cart Nazi.  Absolutism is not very becoming.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm surprised that a cart-only course exists in the USA at this juncture. If Bandon were to start allowing carts it would not surprise me at all but it would be a minor disappointment.

P.S. Terry, there is no room to be a "walking Nazi" in USA golf today. It's all about carts, everywhere, all the time. If you can't tolerate the existence of four courses out of an entire bloody continent with no carts, even four highly desirable courses, then absolutism is hardly a strong enough word for it.

[Garland Bayley]

F carts! nuf said

try Bandon Preserve or Shortys

sit in a plane, sit in a car, sit in a shuttle, sit at the pub, but walk the course!, good heavens...sounds like this is getting to the entitlement stage at this point

+1

[Garland Bayley]

I was surprised since first visiting Scotland in 99 that on subsequent trips more carts were visible on the courses. My dad told me stories from around the mid 90 where it was near impossible to get a cart(my mother was handicapped but enjoyed driving the course in a cart, some courses were very considerate and would have a ranger drive the cart for her).

My thinking for the increase in carts was for the North Amercian tourist as they were accustomed to using carts.

As for Bandon, I completely agree with carts for medical purposes but otherwise, no carts. My dad is now 80 and hates using a cart. If he wants to do a second round, he starts eliminating clubs from his bag. As we get older(fatter), we shouldnt start looking for ways to accomodate our age but rather ways in which we can better our health....you know, like walking 18 holes instead of riding.

And kudos to Mac, I would have been crying at the turn if I had your old hips.

As for the clinking of the irons, they have been clinking since well before Balata balls. I actually love the sound of the clinking clubs as I walk the fairway. It is simple, if you are approaching a group merely put your right hand over the clubs and the clinking will stop. A guy on the 17th tee gave me a simple nod of the hat on the weekend when he noticed I did that while his mate was hitting.....I love golf!

+1

[Kalen Braley]

F carts! nuf said

try Bandon Preserve or Shortys

sit in a plane, sit in a car, sit in a shuttle, sit at the pub, but walk the course!, good heavens...sounds like this is getting to the entitlement stage at this point

A walking Nazi is just as appealing as a cart Nazi.  Absolutism is not very becoming.

+100

...well said Terry!


Either way, this whole thing will eventually play out at the resort.  As the crowds get older, if there aren't young-uns to replace em, rounds will drop and so will prices. But if Mr. Keiser can make a healthy profit without carts, then I don't see anything work perse with his model

As for me, I think the one thing lost on Natzi walkers is....golf should be a game for enjoyment.  If one is in a good deal of physical pain while playing golf, where is the enjoyment?  Why spend big $$$$ for that?

[Garland Bayley]

I'm surprised that a cart-only course exists in the USA at this juncture. If Bandon were to start allowing carts it would not surprise me at all but it would be a minor disappointment.

P.S. Terry, there is no room to be a "walking Nazi" in USA golf today. It's all about carts, everywhere, all the time. If you can't tolerate the existence of four courses out of an entire bloody continent with no carts, even four highly desirable courses, then absolutism is hardly a strong enough word for it.

+1

[Dan King]

Terry Lavin writes:
A walking Nazi is just as appealing as a cart Nazi.  Absolutism is not very becoming.

It's self-preservation. We have seen countless times what happens when cartball is allowed. Cart proponents have been saying for decades, just allow carts for people who need them. Before you know it carts, cart golf courses, cart paths and cartballers are everywhere, often times for financial reasons not allowing walkers.

Now they are saying just give in a little at one of the only places that is dedicated to walkers. Tell us, why should we believe them when they have shown they aren't happy until golf is a good walk prohibited?

Cheers,
Dan King

Golf is not a good walk spoiled. It is becoming a good walk prohibited. Show me the common sense in this and I promise I will relent. But there is no common sense at all in the prohibition of walking.
 --Lorne Rubenstein

[Garland Bayley]

... If one is in a good deal of physical pain while playing golf, where is the enjoyment?  Why spend big $$$$ for that?

Pain is a fact of life. I've played in a good deal of physical pain, and enjoyed the playing.

I will not have my full game at Sagebrush, because of pain, but I will still enjoy it.

[Rick Shefchik]

Just a guess, but I believe most of those who vehemently object to carts under any circumstances are relatively young and sturdy, whereas those who would like to see at least a limited use of carts are older and creakier.

I'm 60, my knees ache (surgery on both, but no replacements yet) and I walk 98 percent of my rounds. I'd probably have answered this question differently when I was 40, but with my first trip to Bandon on the schedule for later this year, I find myself sympathetic to the idea of limited cart use there. I plan to play 36 on back-to-back days, and I'll walk it if I have to, but the last 18 are going to hurt like hell.

That's just the way it is at my age, and I will deal with it -- but my interests now lie more toward being able to play more golf than toward spoiling some ideological aesthetic that I've never experienced.

Bandon can and should do whatever they want. Golf's demographics suggest, however, that more and more of its core consumers are dealing with my realities.