[Jerry Kluger]

It seems to me that the trend today is to build average or above average size greens with significant contours while small greens are a rare and forgotten design feature.  Players are used to missing shots and still hitting greens and winding up with really long first putts. I would think that there should be at least a few greens that are significantly smaller than most greens on a course in order to challenge the player and make the course more interesting.  Thoughs?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Some architects design to cater for volume of rounds so it can be restrictive just how small you can go. In the UK anything sub 4500 sqft is going to be a problem. Whats good for the grass is important.

[Matt MacIver]

Today I played a course with the smallest greens I've ever seen, moreso than HarbourTown, named Ocean Pointe. Probably ~30 years old, George Cobb, I think the course was recently renovated but there are no other architects named so I'm thinking they kept the greens the same. Theses small greens rolled slowish but true and had some interesting contours, but nothing special. Not sure if the course itself would have benefited from bigger greens or not.

[Tom_Doak]

Jerry:

It's just because of what Adrian said ... if you build a green much under 5,500 square feet and it has problems, it's all your fault, even though there are plenty of great old courses where not a single green is bigger than that.

In addition, if you build a green with any contour, you have to build it bigger now because the greens are so fast that the number of usable hole locations on a small green won't suffice.

[Matthew Rose]

Was thinking about this very thing actually. I played (ex-TPC) Plum Creek today and had forgotten how small those greens were. They might be among the smallest on average set of greens in Denver, as far as I know.

I actually liked it..... the smaller targets almost force me to concentrate a little more, pay attention to the wind a little more. The penalty for missing was certainly greater.... I had to really grind just to make bogey on a couple holes.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: It's a shame that architects would design a course defensively.  If the hole would play best with a small green then it seems to me that is what should be done.  I would agree that a bunch of small greens might be a problem but a couple of them could make the course more interesting and not every green needs to have significant contours.

[Ally Mcintosh]

What are some of the best courses with a small set of greens?... And what is their average size?

Which course in the Top 100 has the smallest set of greens?... We know the biggest (TOC)... It would be a really interesting (but hard to achieve I imagine) little exercise to categorise the Top 100 by average green size

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jerry,

I think they went out of vogue when the number of rounds increased dramatically.

Ditto tees.

Traffic, heavy traffic, more than anything else caused small greens to fall out of favor with designers.

And, who could blame them ?

[Ronald Montesano]

Damned if we do, damned if we don't. In order to increase the number of participants in our game, we need to expand tees and greens.

[Dan Herrmann]

I know that Hanse built a few very small greens at French Creek.  From what I see, the green size is inversely proportional to the difficulty of the approach shot.  In other words, the easier approach shots have the smallest greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Damned if we do, damned if we don't. In order to increase the number of participants in our game, we need to expand tees and greens.

Ron,

It's good to see that your logic is as flawed as ever.
It's the reverse.  When traffic increases dramatically, you have to expand tees and greens.
It's sort of a night follows day routine.

You're probably not aware of it, but the USGA local agronomist provides a consulting service to clubs.

When golf was booming, one of their "suggestions" was to increase teeing areas and to try to expand or recapture greens, due to the stress placed upon both by dramatically increased traffic.

You have so much to learn and I only have a limited amount of time.

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat: Here's my question to you: If greens got bigger but they also became more contoured didn't they have fewer possible hole locations and thus more traffic in smaller areas.  Also, there are many courses out there with a number of small greens yet they still have quite a bit of play, e.g. Harbourtowne and Riviera.  I still see it as a viable option on a couple of holes.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: Here's my question to you:

If greens got bigger but they also became more contoured didn't they have fewer possible hole locations and thus more traffic in smaller areas. 


Jerry, but that's not what happened, as they became bigger to accomodate more traffic, they didn't become more contoured as the increased stimp speeds prevented that from happening.

But, in a hypothetical world, if the greens became bigger BUT more contoured, it would depend upon how much bigger.

Also, there are many courses out there with a number of small greens yet they still have quite a bit of play, e.g. Harbourtowne and Riviera.  I still see it as a viable option on a couple of holes. 

Don't know how much play Harbour Town gets.
I'd imagine it's pretty seasonal.
Riviera probably gets plenty of play, but, I don't recall their greens being tiny.

A few small greens, are acceptible as long as you understand the limit on hole locations if the greens are sloped/contoured. 

[Dan_Callahan]

Pebble Beach has some of the smallest greens I've ever seen. I assume there's a ton of traffic, yet the greens seem to hold up well.

[Jim Hoak]

I've read that year after year, Pebble Beach has the smallest greens played on Tour.  And they handle a very large number of rounds a year, so that disproves the necessity of large greens for traffic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim and Dan,

Have you also read about abominable non-tournament conditions at PBGC ?

And are you aware of the size of the maintenance budget ?

In PBGC's favor is it's oceanside location and cool temperatures, night and day.

[Dan_Callahan]

Hi Pat,

I have heard about Pebble's bad conditions. But when I played the course and saw it with my own eyes, I was impressed with how great the maintenance was.

Dan

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

For the most part the course has been in good shape when I played it, but I know of others who complained bitterly about conditions, especially in light of the cost to play.

Bob Huntley could probably provide accurate insight with respect to conditions over the years at PBGC

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I grew up on small greens and love them. I think my ex short game was a tribute to them. It doe seem to be a missing feature in course design in the last decade or so. Pat the budget at Pebble is a factor but all in all they are in great shape year round. In fact they are much better than most courses with greens twice the size.

[Sean_A]

Maybe I am wrong, but doesn't Pebble have plain old Poa greens - the sort that would naturally grow in that climate?  It could be a case of forgoing excellent conditioning for good conditioned, more wear and tear resilient green. 

There is still a place for small greens in this world if golfers maintain reasonable expectations for conditioning. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Maybe I am wrong, but doesn't Pebble have plain old Poa greens - the sort that would naturally grow in that climate?  It could be a case of forgoing excellent conditioning for good conditioned, more wear and tear resilient green. 

There is still a place for small greens in this world if golfers maintain reasonable expectations for conditioning. 

Ciao

Sean:

They have redone the greens at Pebble Beach a couple of times in the past twenty years, but as I recall from the recent U.S. Open they are back to poa annua again.

Pebble's greens average well under 4,000 square feet ... I can't remember if Pebble or Harbour Town has the smallest greens on Tour, but they are 1-2, with Riviera probably third smallest.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - Yes you are spot on PB is pretty much straight Poa. It can work ok but is probably not best. We are talking Agronomics not about desiging for the golf itself, if you want certain grasses you need to think traffic. The golf course architect has to continually balance things that are good for golf and good for the turf. Its often the fault of the 'pro turned architect' (novice) they dont think about the maintenance issues and design soley for the golf, thus creating difficult things to mow or traffic routing problems.

Somewhere like Bandons Old Mac would be unlikely to maintain pure fescue with small greens, increase the size and you are giving yourself the ingredients to keep it.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

That was my point, grass selection can effect green size.  I think Pebble gets away with smaller greens at least partly because of the grass type.  It also helps that Pebble is Pebble and folks may put up with less than great conditioning - just as it is the case with TOC. 

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

It is rarely done, but if you wanted a hole with a really small green, you could build two 3,500 SF greens and alternate them.  Of course, given that you lose about half that green to perimeter where you wouldn't set the pin, 2 x 3500 doesn't equal the pin space of 7,000.

[Dan Boerger]

Another advantage of larger greens is that if it's a course you play a lot, you will frequently be offered different approach shots - which is a nice change of pace.

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