[Keith OHalloran]

Thanks Pat.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the 4th reason is the only one that matters, maybe the first and fourth together.

I think that we are talking about events that happened before Memorial Day, and as you said, many are set years in advance. I would think that if the club wants to allow wide leeway in practice rounds, they could.
The argument has been that the visitor can not displace the members, and can not have run of the show sort of speak. But at Garden CIty, they can, and the reason they can, is that members are proud of the tournament and are willing to put up with some visitor play for that week. If the members at all the hosting tournaments felt the same way about their event, I suspect it would be easier to shcedule practice rounds.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carl,

I served on the board of a club for twenty years that hosted USGA events, MGA events, NJSGA events and NJPGA events.
I was largely responsible for getting the club to host those events, some as recently as 2012.
In addition, for about the same period of time I served as the NJ liason person on the USGA Mid-Amateur committee.

I think that just might qualify me to comment on this topic.

Greg,

What's your experience in this area ?

Patrick,

We have all dealt with boards full of over inflated egos, third generation entitlement and petty self interests.

Greg,

That's an interesting characterization of the individuals who serve on boards, who do the work of the club with no compensation.
Have you ever served on a board ?
Most fellows serving on boards donate their time, are usually hard working successful people, like doctors, lawyers, dentists, merchants and business people.

I haven't encountered any board members who were "third generation entitlement"
Could you list the clubs where "third generation entitlement's" sit on the board ?

As to inflated egos, at one time or another, we're all probably guilty of that.

As to "petty" self interests, I think you have to differentiate self interests, or the interests of that faction of the membership the board member is representing, from "petty" self interest.  I've seen plenty of the former, but not that much of the latter.

One of the things I prided myself on, was that my votes weren't self serving, that they were for what I considered the best interest of the club.
I often found myself in passionate debates with my friends and foes alike, my fellow board members who had their views, some of which were objective and some of which I felt were self serving.  That's why you have boards, so that the issues can be fleshed out and hopefully resolved for the best interest of the club.

From the sound of your description of the composition of boards, it doesn't seem like you've actually served on the board of a club.
There are some very fine people who give their time and effort to the club.
My view is that a board member should have three qualifiers.
# 1.  They should have a passion for the entity.
# 2.  They should have the time required to serve.
# 3.  They should have the intelligence and common sense necessary to perform their function.

Unlike the song, "Two out of three" is bad.
You have to have all three to be an outstanding board member.  

A golf club board is no different than another. I don't see anyone arguing that it is difficult politics, perhpas as petty as it comes but still difficult.
It is difficult.
It's not easy trying to please, members, their families, staff, guests, vendors, etc., etc..

My initial comment was meant to express surprise that you were falling on then side you are and ask if I was reading you correctly.
Your responses have failed to address that whatsoever.

Greg, I'm afraid I don't understand the above paragraph, especially the first sentence.

I was trying to express that it's very difficult to impossible to please everyone, especially outliers.
Having been intricately involved in this issue, on all sides, and knowing the problems that arise when a member or members get bent out of shape because someone who tried to accomodate an outsider had it backfire on them, resulting in the negative reaction that the club shouldn't host outside events, thus ruining it for everyone.

I advocated for outside events, tournaments and qualifiers at the clubs I was a member of.
I've been active in that task for close to 50 years.
But, I see the problems created when those who can't abide by the structure of the event, seek exceptions.

I can cite incident after incident, where the club or an employee or member of the club went out of their way to accomodate an outlier, only to have it backfire on them and ruin the chances for hosting future events.

Experience, your own and the experience of others, is a great teacher.
If you don't learn by it, you won't be hosting another event any time soon.

Hope that helps

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thanks Pat.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the 4th reason is the only one that matters, maybe the first and fourth together.

Keith,

There are other reasons I didn't cite.

For example, GCGC is a most unusual club.
We don't have the diverse factions that you typically have at other clubs.
As a Men's club, there's a heightened sense of comraderie, of tradition and of sacrificing and giving back to the game.
We don't worry about how the wallpaper looks or the shade and fabric of the upholstery in the sitting area.


I think that we are talking about events that happened before Memorial Day, and as you said, many are set years in advance. I would think that if the club wants to allow wide leeway in practice rounds, they could.

Keith, you can't provide "wide leeway", that's the formula for disaster.
You can provide "reasonable" leeway, the problem is, you'd be surprised how many unreasonable requests are made.
And, you can't disrupt your membership, some of whom are dead set against hosting outside events and will look for any excuse to criticize the club's decision to host an event.

The argument has been that the visitor can not displace the members, and can not have run of the show sort of speak.

That's a valid argument.

The members pay initiation fees and dues and minimums and they don't want to be inconvenienced.

But at Garden CIty, they can, and the reason they can, is that members are proud of the tournament and are willing to put up with some visitor play for that week.

While that tends to be the Macro or global culture of the club, you do have a faction that feels otherwise.
But, overall, the club, the great majority of the club, embrace golf and the hosting of the Travis.
But, GCGC is not your typical club.

If the members at all the hosting tournaments felt the same way about their event, I suspect it would be easier to shcedule practice rounds.

But other clubs don't feel the same way.
They're not connected by the same bond.
And they have a more diverse membership, more war camps to contend with.
The culture at GCGC is unique, and certainly not easily exported to other clubs.
If it was, it would have been done so half a century ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As a board member of a club who has hosted USGA Amateur and Local qualifying,I am speaking from some experience as well here.

A few things

1) Clubs were paid by USGA to host these events, however, the amount per round is a fraction of our guest greens fees.
Mark, we hosted USGA events and USGA qualifiers and were never paid a fee to do so.
Reimbursement for meals, yes, but, not a fee for securing the site.

2) Qualifiers from state ams were generally not paid for;  (This is also why it is rare for a private course to host one of these)
It's far from rare in the MET area.
Private clubs are very generous in donating their course for events and qualifiers.

3) Part of the agreement is that practice rounds need to be made available;  however, it is up to the club to

Agreed, and in the great majority of cases, practice rounds are reasonably accomodated.

4) Clubs are allowed to enforce their own dress codes, norms, etc.  (e.g. no metal spikes, no push carts)

That's a reasonable expectation, especially since members are in attendance during or after the competition.

5) These is tremendous pressure for members of state golf association boards to get their own clubs to host these types of events. 
In fact, you could argue this is a key part of their application process.

I'd agree.  But, there are also a good number of pro-active golfers who don't serve on association boards who try to convince their club volunteer to donate the course for an event
or a qualifier.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Right on the money. If you are going to host you need to go all in instead of just putting your big toe in the water.

I don`t understand the clubs that host and then make every part of the experience a pain in the ass for the contestants.

Can you name five (5) clubs that did this ?

If you can`t have a bit of flexibility based on someone not being able to get there on the set aside day than don`t host.

Are you out of your mind ?
So now the hosting club has to agree to be subject to the schedules of 150 contestants prior to committing to be the host ?
Evidently, you've never been involved with arranging substantive tournaments or qualifiers at a club.

People do in fact have legit reasons for not being able to get there on a specific day.

So what ?

The association typically defines the schedule of events, including practice rounds when you sign your application to enter, AND you agree to abide by the terms of the event when you affix your signature to the application.

If you have a legit reason for not being able to get there on the specific day or days, that's the contestants problem, not the hosting club's or the association's problem.


Again if they only want to host for the cache of putting it on their website or pitch to prospective members then they are missing the point.

Tim,

I'm afraid you're out of touch on this issue.

[Greg Tallman]

Patrick,

I was surprised that I seemed to find you on the side of "these organizations/events should just be grateful they got any acces to XYZ club".

I would have expected you to fall on the side of "I believe a club should not only get involved in such events but strive to make them a great experience for the players... do everything they can or not host the event at all". Of course you can now provide a few paragraphs expounding on "do everything they can". That is not to say I agree that players should be given carte blanche in terms of access, just surprised you seemed to be on the other side of the fence so to speak. Why? Not sure, just the sense I got from reading a variety of your contributions here.

As for boards, for every board made up of individuals as you describe I would suggest there are at least as many made up of people driven solely by self interest, ego or both with not a whole lot more contributed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I was surprised that I seemed to find you on the side of "these organizations/events should just be grateful they got any acces to XYZ club".

I would have expected you to fall on the side of "I believe a club should not only get involved in such events but strive to make them a great experience for the players... do everything they can or not host the event at all".

The above sentence indicates a complete failure to know and understand the dynamics behind a club volunteering their course for an event.

Clubs don't have but a single thought, they're not monolithic in the views of the members.
There's discord, dissatisfaction and opposition to hosting events.
While many want to host an event, many are opposed to hosting an event.

Of course you can now provide a few paragraphs expounding on "do everything they can".
That is not to say I agree that players should be given carte blanche in terms of access, just surprised you seemed to be on the other side of the fence so to speak.


Like many things in life, including marriage, "COMPROMISE" is a critical element.
The club may have voted to offer their course as the venue for an event or qualifier, but, that vote may have been with conditions.

Remember, the "Association" dictates the dates, when they approach the club.
The club may want to host the event, but, it may conflict with club events already scheduled, hence, compromises need to get worked out.
And, one of the compromises might be to restrict practice rounds to certain, fixed dates so as to avoid conflicts with club events.

The ladies might have interclub matches the week of the practice rounds.
Or, there might be a Junior competition.
There are dozens of golf and non-golf events that can cause conflicts.

As a Board member you try to resolve those conflicts.
But, giving every competitor carte blanche, unlimited or unrestricted practice rounds, ain't gonna happen, unless you're living in a fantasy world.

I've asked you a number of times, have you ever sat on a golf club/course board and have you ever been involved in securing a tournament.
Would you please answer those questions.



Why? Not sure, just the sense I got from reading a variety of your contributions here.

Unlike some, you have to look at both or all of the sides of this issue, you can't just look at it from one perspective, which is what many are doing.



As for boards, for every board made up of individuals as you describe I would suggest there are at least as many made up of people driven solely by self interest, ego or both with not a whole lot more contributed.

Can you cite me some specific examples or is this just your general perspective when it comes to boards ?

[Greg Tallman]

Experience with boards - yes.

There is no need to list the variety of challenges that even a well intentioned club/board can/will encounter in such instances I am reasonably certain most here understand those issues... particularly egtting in the way of a ladies interclub match! (sorry, just a little levity).

Again, I had you pegged as the "all in or let's not even bother" kind of guy. That's all, and I really do not require a "real world" lecture, regardless of your vast experience in this and other matters.

You could throw me a bone and offer.. "In a perfect world I would agree..."

[Tim Martin]

Right on the money. If you are going to host you need to go all in instead of just putting your big toe in the water.

I don`t understand the clubs that host and then make every part of the experience a pain in the ass for the contestants.

Can you name five (5) clubs that did this ?

If you can`t have a bit of flexibility based on someone not being able to get there on the set aside day than don`t host.

Are you out of your mind ?
So now the hosting club has to agree to be subject to the schedules of 150 contestants prior to committing to be the host ?
Evidently, you've never been involved with arranging substantive tournaments or qualifiers at a club.

People do in fact have legit reasons for not being able to get there on a specific day.

So what ?

The association typically defines the schedule of events, including practice rounds when you sign your application to enter, AND you agree to abide by the terms of the event when you affix your signature to the application.

If you have a legit reason for not being able to get there on the specific day or days, that's the contestants problem, not the hosting club's or the association's problem.


Again if they only want to host for the cache of putting it on their website or pitch to prospective members then they are missing the point.

Tim,

I'm afraid you're out of touch on this issue.

Pat-I am not about to enter into the fray in this matter and be bullied and talked down to. It`s not necessary to list your associations with club boards,committees,state and local golf associations etc. to make your point. You have already made these associations well known on many other threads using them as arrows in your quiver to run roughshod over those you disagree with. As far as what the percentage of doctors,lawyers,dentists and merchants that serve on boards it is really of very little consequence to me although it seems to hold some cache for you. I guess a dentist is more qualified than a teacher or government worker to decide whether or not a qualifier will be held at a certain club. My only point was that clubs could have a modicum of flexibility when deciding on those requests with special circumstances attached. Hey I`m waiving the white flag as it`s clear that with you this is a zero sum game. Congrats!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat-I am not about to enter into the fray in this matter and be bullied and talked down to. It`s not necessary to list your associations with club boards,committees,state and local golf associations etc. to make your point. You have already made these associations well known on many other threads using them as arrows in your quiver to run roughshod over those you disagree with.

Tim, some, and you may be one of them, decried the inability of a competitor to access a practice round other than the ones offered to the field of competitors, almost demanding that it was the club's obligation to accomodate everyone.

Many made their comments absent an iota of real world experience.

I made my comments based upon 50 years of intimate experience in this area.

If reality versus theory causes you to feel bullied or talked down to, well, that's a byproduct of someone without firsthand knowledge telling someone with firsthand knowledge, how things are done in the real world, when nothing could be further from the truth.

To sit back and listen to the whining and complaining of those who have never been involved with these issues is.......tiresome.
No need for me to beat around the bush.
I'm just telling it like it is.


As far as what the percentage of doctors,lawyers, dentists and merchants that serve on boards it is really of very little consequence to me although it seems to hold some cache for you. I guess a dentist is more qualified than a teacher or government worker to decide whether or not a qualifier will be held at a certain club.

In the Metropolitan New York area, with the cost associated with belonging to a private clubs, I haven't encountered too many teachers or government workers serving on the boards.  Have you ?

My only point was that clubs could have a modicum of flexibility when deciding on those requests with special circumstances attached.
In this particular case, the club offered alternative practice round dates, but the competitor couldn't make them.
To what length does a club have to go to satisfy the whims of every competitor ?

Are you aware of the club's calendar of events ?  Of the possible conflicts with other dates, be it outings or special events, along with member play ?

Don't be so quick to blame the club.
The competitor knew, when he signed up for the tournament, what the practice round days were, and knowing he couldn't make those dates, he still signed up.

Last year, or the year before, a fellow at a nearby golf club signed up for the club championship.
He reached the finals.
Then, he announced that he had a wedding to attend, as best man, and wanted the club and his finalist competitor to reschedule to suit his needs.
He knew the date of the finals.  He knew the date of the wedding, but he still signed up, knowing there was a conflict should he reach the finals.
Fortunately, the club told him to take a flying hike and make a choice, the finals or the wedding.
He chose the wedding.

I've also been a tournament Chairman and you can't believe the excuses people will make to try to convince you to alter a competitive schedule or their designated rounds.  They do this in spite of knowing what the structure was when they signed up.  But, they want it their way, to the exclusion of consideration for everyone else.
This happens all to often and is indicative of the "me" or "entitlement" generation.

Hey I`m waiving the white flag as it`s clear that with you this is a zero sum game. Congrats!

Not at all.
It's a matter of someone with NO experience trying to convince someone with extensive experience on how things should be run, and the person with extensive experience telling the person with NO experience that they don't know what they're talking about.
There's no other way to sugar coat it.

It's like a passenger, with no flight training or flight experience trying to tell a seasoned pilot how to fly and land the aircraft.
You consider it bullying and being talking down to.
I consider it common sense..

[Tim Martin]

Pat-I am not about to enter into the fray in this matter and be bullied and talked down to. It`s not necessary to list your associations with club boards,committees,state and local golf associations etc. to make your point. You have already made these associations well known on many other threads using them as arrows in your quiver to run roughshod over those you disagree with.

Tim, some, and you may be one of them, decried the inability of a competitor to access a practice round other than the ones offered to the field of competitors, almost demanding that it was the club's obligation to accomodate everyone.

Many made their comments absent an iota of real world experience.

I made my comments based upon 50 years of intimate experience in this area.

If reality versus theory causes you to feel bullied or talked down to, well, that's a byproduct of someone without firsthand knowledge telling someone with firsthand knowledge, how things are done in the real world, when nothing could be further from the truth.

To sit back and listen to the whining and complaining of those who have never been involved with these issues is.......tiresome.
No need for me to beat around the bush.
I'm just telling it like it is.


As far as what the percentage of doctors,lawyers, dentists and merchants that serve on boards it is really of very little consequence to me although it seems to hold some cache for you. I guess a dentist is more qualified than a teacher or government worker to decide whether or not a qualifier will be held at a certain club.

In the Metropolitan New York area, with the cost associated with belonging to a private clubs, I haven't encountered too many teachers or government workers serving on the boards.  Have you ?

My only point was that clubs could have a modicum of flexibility when deciding on those requests with special circumstances attached.
In this particular case, the club offered alternative practice round dates, but the competitor couldn't make them.
To what length does a club have to go to satisfy the whims of every competitor ?

Are you aware of the club's calendar of events ?  Of the possible conflicts with other dates, be it outings or special events, along with member play ?

Don't be so quick to blame the club.
The competitor knew, when he signed up for the tournament, what the practice round days were, and knowing he couldn't make those dates, he still signed up.

Last year, or the year before, a fellow at a nearby golf club signed up for the club championship.
He reached the finals.
Then, he announced that he had a wedding to attend, as best man, and wanted the club and his finalist competitor to reschedule to suit his needs.
He knew the date of the finals.  He knew the date of the wedding, but he still signed up, knowing there was a conflict should he reach the finals.
Fortunately, the club told him to take a flying hike and make a choice, the finals or the wedding.
He chose the wedding.

I've also been a tournament Chairman and you can't believe the excuses people will make to try to convince you to alter a competitive schedule or their designated rounds.  They do this in spite of knowing what the structure was when they signed up.  But, they want it their way, to the exclusion of consideration for everyone else.
This happens all to often and is indicative of the "me" or "entitlement" generation.

Hey I`m waiving the white flag as it`s clear that with you this is a zero sum game. Congrats!

Not at all.
It's a matter of someone with NO experience trying to convince someone with extensive experience on how things should be run, and the person with extensive experience telling the person with NO experience that they don't know what they're talking about.
There's no other way to sugar coat it.

It's like a passenger, with no flight training or flight experience trying to tell a seasoned pilot how to fly and land the aircraft.
You consider it bullying and being talking down to.
I consider it common sense..

Because I don`t hang my resume out there like a banner I`m wondering how you know what type of experience I have. The only thing that you having 50 years worth of experience tells me is that your old.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Because I don`t hang my resume out there like a banner I`m wondering how you know what type of experience I have.
The only thing that you having 50 years worth of experience tells me is that your old.

You don't need to hang your resume out there like a banner, your typed words have done that for you.
Deductive reasoning remains viable, even to this "old" mind.

Growing old is mandatory.
Growing up is ..........optional.

And, as Groucho Marks stated, "You're only as old as the women you feel"

[Tim Martin]

Pretty sad and elitist to remark that a government worker,policeman,fireman,teacher wouldn`t be able to belong to a private club.Wow

[Dan Byrnes]

The assistant pro at my club is a pretty good player.  Wins just about all the sectional events, has a top 2 in the National Assistants Championships, playing in the club pro, section Open qualifier winner, several mini tour wins.  He is in mid 30's and working hard to get to the next level.  So top level events are a big deal to him.

Recently our sections US Open Qualifier was hosted at a McGregor Links.  The course conditions were awful from a maintenance point of view, they weren't to open to practice rounds either.  While I realize they are a private club but why host the event if you don't do it right.  It is important to these folks and a reflection of the club.

Qualifiers are usually scheduled years in advance, therefore it's difficult to predict Mother Nature's influence on the date of the qualifier.

Today he tells me that the host of the Massachusetts Open said the couldn't  accomadate a practice round on a Sunday afternoon for him.  Now the club did give some availability a few weeks earlier but he had another event and couldn't make it.  Really?  The club is that busy on a Sunday evening?  Seems strange.

You're kidding right ?
Saturdays and Sundays are the two busiest days at private clubs and you want the membership to defer to a non-member ?  ?  ?

Let me see if I understand this correctly.  The club in question provided him with alternative dates, but, HIS schedule couldn't accomodate those dates ?  ?  ?

This is a problem that transcends golf, the "entitlement" mentality.

When clubs host events and qualifiers, they typically publish the practice round dates.

If a golfer can't make them you want the club to ignore their member needs and cater to a non-member by accomodating HIS particular needs.
Now, EXPAND that to the entire field.  Try accomodating 150 or so golfers to the exclusion of satisfying the club's membership.

He shakes it off like the professional he is but I was surprised.

Then you have NO concept of logistics and practicality.
You should be happy that the club has elected to host the Mass Open instead of complaining that the club won't accomodate your friend's needs because they conflict with the club's practice round dates.

When events like this have been played at clubs where I have been a member it was never an issue.  I would host any of these folks myself but I wouldn't tolerate my club treating folks like this.  I would be embarrassed.

Then, once again, you don't understand the problem and logistics associated with running a tournament with 150 or so competitors.

No one knows the formula for success, but surely the formula for failure is to try to please everyone.


He was invited to a Taylor Made event at Myopia Hunt and he asked to just look at the course let alone play it.  No, was the answer. This event is a regional tournament for Tayor Made staffers and a national qualifier.  I understand Myopia is a high end place but surely they could accommodate him?

WHY ?
They're hosting the event aren't they ?
Are you sure that NO ONE is entitled to a practice round ?

So for these two events he has to play with no practice round.

Then, he's on an equal footing with every other competitor, NO ?



I was really disappointed to hear this.  Am I just imagining that it shouldn't be like this?

Again, let me see if I understand this correctly.

For the first event, the club has offered practice round dates, but, your friend can't make them because he has elected to play in another competition.  And, you want the club to ignore or put aside member play on Sunday afternoon, which is usually a heavy play couples time, to accomodate your non-member friend ?  ?? ?

Is that correct ?

And you don't understand that ?  ?  ?

When dealing with 150 so competitors you have to establish guidelines/rules in an effort to try to accomodate everyone, the competitors, officials and club members.  You do so by establishing fixed practice round dates and times.  If a competitor can't make them due to choice, or scheduling conflicts, he usually can find a member to host him.  But, whining that it's not fair is absurd.  Asking the club to make a special exception is absurd, especially when multiplied by 150 special exceptions.

You should try running a tournament to see all of the problems that arise, then, maybe, you'll have a better appreciation for how difficult it is to try to please everyone.

As I mentioned in the threads I was involved in running several New York State Amatuer Championships at the clubs I was a member of and served on the board in various roles including President.  Also hosted USGA Qualifiers.  Hosted Invitiationals and other events.  Been on several club boards and practically ran one as a volunteer general manager.  So my experience not exactly trivial in the club business.  I guess since I set the tone at the club our handling of things was what I viewed a right.  Since the club offered to host the event we then did the best we could.  I am sure not everyone was happy but most feedback was overwhelmingly positive.  Certainly not all members were supportive of the events.

To be perfectly clear the assitant in question had absolutely no issues with it other than disapointment.  I posted this looking for opinions as everyone has different view points on things but the condensending nature of your response is a bit much.

Dan

.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pretty sad and elitist to remark that a government worker,policeman,fireman,teacher wouldn`t be able to belong to a private club.Wow

It's not elitist, it's a reality in the New York City area.

Private clubs are very expensive, especially with so many clubs insisting upon minimum food charges in addition to dues and assessments

Having disposable income for golf of $ 15,000 to $ 25,000 or more isn't something you associate with a good number of people, including government workers, policemen, firemen, and teachers.  It's a further indication of how unfamiliar you are with the workings of private clubs, financially, politically and administratively.

 

[Mark Smolens]

There's a CDGA better ball event at a local private club next Monday, and the club agreed to accommodate participants for a practice round for $75 + a cart fee (the members at this club have hosted the Illinois Open at least twice in the last three or four years, so they are more than generous in allowing outsiders to play their course). Since my partner has never played the course, I called the pro to see what kind of schedule was available. He could not have been more helpful. Although Friday afternoons are usually busy at his club, by the early evening the course has generally cleared out, and he said we could tee off Friday afternoon at 4. Country club golf at a beautiful private club, a great price, plenty of time to finish the round and have a nice dinner. My only hope is that the pro's still around when we finish so that we can invite him and/or his staff to join us for a cold one at some local establishment that serves ne'er do wells such as my playing partner and myself.

When I play in these Chicago District events, I always make certain to send a note to the head pro thanking his club for allowing us to play an event at their club. I really don't have any interest in joining a club and playing all of (or even the vast majority of) my golf at one place. But I definitely appreciate the clubs in our District that allow me the privilege of playing at their facilities.

[Tim Martin]

Pat-Thanks for the socio economic lesson. Sometimes civil servants have spouses that also work and one or both have been known to take on second jobs to get ahead. Although I know you may find it hard to believe but they have on occasion been known to make prudent investments and even prosper in the financial markets. I`m sure the thought of these types of happenings has you reeling in horror but their might even be a government employee down the street from you that can actually send their kids to college and god forbid join the very club at which you sit on every board and committee. Get over yourself.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat-Thanks for the socio economic lesson. Sometimes civil servants have spouses that also work and one or both have been known to take on second jobs to get ahead.

Now that you're going to add a spouse to the mix, let's add in the lottery winnings and inheritance.

Although I know you may find it hard to believe but they have on occasion been known to make prudent investments and even prosper in the financial markets.

Tim, are you more likely to find a doctor, lawyer, dentist or business man on the board of a private club or a government employee or teacher ?
What would you say the ratio is at private clubs ?  1-1, 1-10, 1-100 or 1-1,000 ?

I`m sure the thought of these types of happenings has you reeling in horror but their might even be a government employee down the street from you that can actually send their kids to college and god forbid join the very club at which you sit on every board and committee.


The non-refundable, non-bond inititiation fee at Boca Rio was $ 200,000 or $ 225,000.
Dues in excess of $ 25,000 before setting foot in the door.
What do you think ?


Get over yourself.  

I will when you try to grasp and get a grip on reality.

[David_Elvins]

In the Metropolitan New York area, with the cost associated with belonging to a private clubs, I haven't encountered too many teachers or government workers serving on the boards.  Have you ?

The non-refundable, non-bond inititiation fee at Boca Rio was $ 200,000 or $ 225,000.
Dues in excess of $ 25,000 before setting foot in the door.
What do you think ?

Where in the New York Metropolitan area is Boca Rio located, exactly?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Elvins,

Why would you disingenuously take two separate quotes from two separate posts and try to pass them off as coming from the same  reply from me  ?  One quote came from reply # 60  and the other from reply # 67,  yet you posted them as coming from the same reply, made at 9:47:05, which effectively misrepresents each response by amongst other things, taking them out of context and making them appear to be from the same reply, when they were from two distinctly different replies.

Intellectual honesty should be the basis of all replies, to the exclusion of attempts to misquote and/or misrepresent previous replies

Why would you attempt to misrepresent the context in which each separate post was made ?

To answer your question Tim referenced clubs where I sat on Boards and committees,  NOT New York clubs.
Although,  Boca Rio was known and referred to as Glen Oaks South, a Long Island Club.

[David_Elvins]

Sorry Pat, it was a simple typo, I copied and pasted the wrong header whilst trying to put two quotes in the one post.  There was no grand conspiracy to misrepresent you and it's been corrected.

I agree with most of what you have written in this thread, by the way. It all seems like common sense and I am not sure how this thread has got to 3 pages.  But at the same time, green ink makes me compelled to argue over trivialities, as I am sure it does for many other on this board.

[Mike Benham]

Much ado about nothing ...

Each club agrees/volunteers to host a qualifier or tournament. 

In the case of USGA events, on the application it is stated when practice rounds are to be made available or at the least, info to contact the host club.

I would think that an experienced tournament golfer would contact the club prior to submitting his application to see if practice rounds would be available the date and time he is available, if not, select another site.

In a related tidbit about qualifiers, I know of one NorCal private club that does not allow spectators during a qualifier.

https://champs.usga.org/show_qualify_sectional.asp?id=13

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sorry Pat, it was a simple typo, I copied and pasted the wrong header whilst trying to put two quotes in the one post.  There was no grand conspiracy to misrepresent you and it's been corrected.

I agree with most of what you have written in this thread, by the way. It all seems like common sense and I am not sure how this thread has got to 3 pages.  But at the same time, green ink makes me compelled to argue over trivialities, as I am sure it does for many other on this board.



Why do you think I post in green ink ?

[Mark Chaplin]

What next...."I cannot play on the tournament day, can I compete the day before"?

[Cory Lewis]

What next...."I cannot play on the tournament day, can I compete the day before"?

Not to thread jack, but that is a question heard at Private clubs across the country all the time.  It really becomes a problem when they say yes, because in my experience their motivations are not always altruistic. 

My favorite was when one club I worked at moved the junior club championship because one kid had driver's ed, not a coincedence his father was a board member.  The other parents found out and all hell broke lose, we ended up playing it with both dates.  Thank goodness there was no playoff!

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