[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I think you've got your wires crossed about the dates and such, and I'm still trying figure out what your post has to do with the St. Andrews to Chicago connection.

In 1894 CBM originally offered Robert Foulis the job at Chicago GC. Robert had just taken a position at Ranfurly so he declined, but suggested his brother James. James took the job at Chicago in 1894. In 1895 James brought brother David over as an assistant at CGC. Robert came to the US in 1896 to take over at Lake Forest (Onwentsia).

In 1897 Harry Turpie took the job at Washington Park. William Watson came over in 1898. Harry Turpie moved to Edgewater in 1899, his brother George joined him there. George came over on a boat with eight other professionals: Lawrence Auchterlonie, R. Simpson, Willie Smith, Arthur Rigsby, Fred Smith, Fred Herd, W. Yoemans, and R. Taylor.

The Foulis brothers, the Turpies, Auchterlonies, Herds and Watson came from St. Andrews; Simpson and Rigsby came from Carnoustie; I'm not sure about the others.

[TEPaul]

I agree---I think there are some crossed wires with dates and such on some of those early UK professional immigrants. I suppose that is understandable considering where various people are getting their information over the years. I do see some discrepencies and differences in the whereabouts and immigration dates on some of those early guys depending on the sources. For instance Jim Nealey seemed to suggest that Macdonald knew James and Robert Foulis when he was at St Andrews University. Considering CBM's dates at St Andrews University and the reported dates of James and Robert Foulises births both were somewhere between 2-5 years old when CBM left St Andrews University.

What I mentioned on the last post concerning the St Andrews--Chicago connection was basically just some early correspondence on Robert Foulis of St Andrews. Samuel Parrish of Shinnecock wrote Henry White in Feb 1913 about UK professionals and White wrote back to Edward Mead of Shinnecock in 1893 recommending Robert Foulis for Shinnecock. Obviously for one reason or another he did not go to Shinnecock but to Chicago later. You wanted to know about connections over here with people over there and it appears Henry White of the American Legation of London might have been one of the important connections for early UK professionals. Apparently he contacted people like Old Tom Morris who contacted people over here to recommend professionals from abroad. Apparently Shinnecock has one of those letters from Old Tom Morris to some of the principals of Shinnecock and it seems he recommended Robert Foulis in 1893.

Another pertinent subject is the question of the professional at Shinnecock in 1893. Shinnecock has no record of having a pro in 1893 but David Moriarty has tried to suggest that Willie Dunn came to Shinnecock in 1893. According to Shinnecock he did not come to Shinnecock until the end of 1894. It's somewhat important because Shinnecock had twelve holes in 1893 and it seems David Moriarty is trying to suggest Dunn had something to do with them at that time.

But that's another subject than this particular thread.

[Tom MacWood]

I agree---I think there are some crossed wires with dates and such on some of those early UK professional immigrants. I suppose that is understandable considering where various people are getting their information over the years. I do see some discrepencies and differences in the whereabouts and immigration dates on some of those early guys depending on the sources. For instance Jim Nealey seemed to suggest that Macdonald knew James and Robert Foulis when he was at St Andrews University. Considering CBMS dates at St Andrews University and the reported dates of James and Robert Foulises births both were somewhere between 2-5 years old when CBM left St Andrews University.

I don't know. CBM went back to St. Andrews after attending University so I guess its possible he met them on one of those trips, or he may have met their father who was closely associated with Old Tom, or Old Tom may have recommended them. Hard to say. The point of this thread was to see if there was in fact a St. Andrews to Chicago connection, and if so, how did it come to be.

[DMoriarty]

Not sure why TEPaul is trying to hijack this thread or trying to make it about Shinnecock, or about my research.   However, for the sake of historical accuracy, I need correct a few of his misrepresentations. He wrote, "It appears that Shinnecock did not have a professional in 1893 or since the departure of Willie Davis in 1892 until Willie Dunn came to the club in 1894" and "According to Shinnecock [Dunn] did not come to Shinnecock until the end of 1894."
1.  "According to Shinnecock?"   So far as I know Shinnecock has taken no position on the matter, at least not on this website.  TEPaul seems to be posturing as if he speaks for "Shinnecock" as if that gives his words authority, but the reality is he is speaking only for himself.  
2. Multiple contemporaneous accounts leave no doubt that Willie Dunn was engaged as the professional at Shinnecock in 1893. I've posted multiple articles documenting this, and on multiple occasions.  
3. Even W.D. Davis (apparently somewhat of a rival of Dunn's) acknowledged that Dunn was engaged at Shinnecock during the 1893 season. They played a publicized exhibition match in 1893 while Dunn was engaged at Shinnecock!
4. Contrary to TEPaul's claim, W.F. Davis was NOT the professional at Shinnecock Hills in 1892.  According to Davis himself he was the professional at Royal Montreal from 1881 until he was engaged by Newport in early 1893: "Before coming to Newport I was engaged with the Royal Montreal Golf Club, Canada; to which club I went out from Hoylake, in 1881."  
5. Davis did spend a few weeks at Shinnecock in or around August 1891* during which time laid out Shinnecock's first course of nine holes and taught potential members how to play.   (The club had not yet formally been created.)  I have seen NO evidence that was employed by Shinnecock in 1892, or that he expanded the course to 12 holes.  Reportedly, the course was still 9 holes in 1892, the same nine holes as Davis had laid out the summer before.
6. TEPaul claims that Shinnecock had no professional between Davis and Dunn, but it was reported in 1892 that Shinnecock had engaged a professional by the name of John Cuthbert from St. Andrews for the 1892 season.

In other words, much of what TEPaul has written about early Shinnecock is factually incorrect, at least if the previously posted multiple contemporaneous accounts are to be believed. I have no idea why he would continue to make claims that have repeatedly been shown to be false, or why he would throw a bunch of disproven stuff about Shinnecock into a thread about Chicago Golf.  I may live on the West Coast, but even I am aware that Shinnecock is not in Chicago.

Now hopefully we can return to discussing Chicago Golf.

____________________
*  Added later:  I forgot to mention that for those few weeks in the summer of 1891 Davis was reportedly on loan from Montreal to Shinnecock.  They wanted him to come down for a few weeks to introduce them to golf and to lay out a course, and after he did so he returned to Montreal.

[TEPaul]

"1.  "According to Shinnecock?"   So far as I know Shinnecock has taken no position on the matter, at least not on this website.  TEPaul seems to be posturing as if he speaks for "Shinnecock" as if that gives his words authority, but the reality is he is speaking only for himself."



"So far as I know?"

That is a "qualifier" I have come to most seriously suspect from you and about you, David Moriarty, on this website over the years!! What does "so far as I know" really mean in the context of these discussions, this research and such? It might mean, and frankly it means to me you don't know much and you are just posturing to make a point which is not a good point or an historically supportable point!!!!

[TEPaul]

Obviously, you don't know much about what position Shinnecock has taken recently or otherwise on their history and their golf architectural history! How would you? Who do you know from Shinnecock who could inform you on such a thing?

As for what I have said in that vein on this thread, I would be more than happy to cite or explain the sources for the things I have said on this thread about Shinnecock. Anyone can simply take them for what they think they are worth informationally!

Can you do the same?

[DMoriarty]

"So far as I know?"

That is a "qualifier" I have come to most seriously suspect from you and about you, David Moriarty, on this website over the years!! What does "so far as I know" really mean in the context of these discussions, this research and such? It might mean, and frankly it means to me you don't know much and you are just posturing to make a point which is not a good point or an historically supportable point!!!!

Obviously, you don't know much about what position Shinnecock has taken recently or otherwise on their history and their golf architectural history! How would you? Who do you know from Shinnecock who could inform you on such a thing?

As for what I have said in that vein on this thread, I would be more than happy to cite or explain the sources for the things I have said on this thread about Shinnecock. Anyone can simply take them for what they think they are worth informationally!

Can you do the same?

All,

So far as I know, this is a thread about The St. Andrews connection in Chicago, if any.  In the past I have provided extensive sources for everything I have written above about Shinnecock.  I won't waste my time doing it again just because TEPaul demands it.   Especially not on a thread having nothing to do with Shinnecock.   My sources are contemporaneous with the events.  I am not relying on anyone else's modern, second hand account as if it were infallible.   Whether from Shinnecock or not, any reasonable historian who looked at the multiple articles about Dunn's 1893 engagement at Shinnecock would agree  with me.

[TEPaul]

While I may've mentioned Shinnecock and David Moriarty's implications about it in 1892-3 his posts #28 (and even #31) are both historically incorrect and factually wrong. He can cut it, slice it or try to explain it any way he wants to but what he said above about Davis and Dunn and Shinnecock is just factually/historically wrong and Shinnecock can prove it!!-----actually has already proven it!

Thankfully they don't and don't have to only avail themselves of the limited research and source material David Moriarty had or availed himself of in his analysis of the architectural evolution of that course that involved Willie Davs and Willie Dunn 

The same can be said about his analysis of Merion East as reflected in his IMO piece entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion." I would like to question him on his research and source material on both courses and their architectural history but apparently he is not willing to do that and would prefer to just avoid the issue altogether.


That doesn't say much positive about the free flow of opinions on historical questions on golf course architecture which is supposed to be the point and hallmark of this website.

[DMoriarty]

While I may've mentioned Shinnecock and David Moriarty's implications about it in 1892-3 his posts #28 (and even #31) are both historically incorrect and factually wrong. He can cut it, slice it or try to explain it any way he wants to but what he said above about Davis and Dunn and Shinnecock is just factually/historically wrong and Shinnecock can prove it!!-----actually has already proven it!

Thankfully they don't and don't have to only avail themselves of the limited research and source material David Moriarty had or availed himself of in his analysis of the architectural evolution of that course that involved Willie Davs and Willie Dunn 

The same can be said about his analysis of Merion East as reflected in his IMO piece entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion." I would like to question him on his research and source material on both courses and their architectural history but apparently he is not willing to do that and would prefer to just avoid the issue altogether.


That doesn't say much positive about the free flow of opinions on historical questions on golf course architecture which is supposed to be the point and hallmark of this website.

Yawn. 


Anyone have anything to say about the St. Andrews connection in Chicago?

[Tom MacWood]

I suspect, after the initial hiring of James Foulis, the pipeline was set up by the pros themselves, recommending and bringing over their brothers and friends as the demand increased. With Carnoustie being so close to St. Andrews its not surprising they would be involved in the influx to Chicago.

[David Harshbarger]

I suspect, after the initial hiring of James Foulis, the pipeline was set up by the pros themselves, recommending and bringing over their brothers and friends as the demand increased. With Carnoustie being so close to St. Andrews its not surprising they would be involved in the influx to Chicago.

Tom,

I recently received a copy of a history of the early pros at Dutchess G&CC in Poughkeepsie.  The pro pipeline was in play there, starting with Willie Park Jr. beach head retail operation in NYC.  That brought Mungo Park (the younger) over to work in the store.  He did the course layout in 1897, and arranged for John Forman to come over as the pro from Edinburgh.  Forman left in 1898 to go to Ardsley, but another Edinburgh pro filled the position, John Ingliss.

Pay for Forman was $50/month plus sales and lessons.  Would that have been better than work in Scotland?

There also appears to have been a lot of volatility in the arrangements for pros then.  Does anyone know what factors drove that?

[Tom MacWood]

I suspect, after the initial hiring of James Foulis, the pipeline was set up by the pros themselves, recommending and bringing over their brothers and friends as the demand increased. With Carnoustie being so close to St. Andrews its not surprising they would be involved in the influx to Chicago.

Tom,

I recently received a copy of a history of the early pros at Dutchess G&CC in Poughkeepsie.  The pro pipeline was in play there, starting with Willie Park Jr. beach head retail operation in NYC.  That brought Mungo Park (the younger) over to work in the store.  He did the course layout in 1897, and arranged for John Forman to come over as the pro from Edinburgh.  Forman left in 1898 to go to Ardsley, but another Edinburgh pro filled the position, John Ingliss.

Pay for Forman was $50/month plus sales and lessons.  Would that have been better than work in Scotland?

There also appears to have been a lot of volatility in the arrangements for pros then.  Does anyone know what factors drove that?

I believe John Park joined Mungo at some point, or he may have come over first, I don't remember. You know they were from Musselburgh, as were Willie Dunn, Willie Campbell and Willie Weir. There may have been a Musselburgh pipeline as well.

[David Harshbarger]

Tom,

Looked like another pipeline going there from Musselburgh.  Do you know if the financial opportunity in the new world was better?  I would think the advancement opportunity was pretty good, given all the growth.

Dave

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Donald Ross wrote of it being much better in Golf Has Never Failed Me.  While not sure, it seemed like it was a well known fact (or at least assumption) among Scot pro's that there was money to be made in America.

[DMoriarty]

TomM

That the pros eventually used their own connections makes sense, as does the fact that they brought over family members.  Still though Watson is a mystery.   I've never seen any indication that he worked as a professional in Scotland or England before coming over.  Have you?   Yet he seems to have been working almost immediately upon his arrival, as if he came over with a job arranged.  
________________________


I wonder if the Forgan family was responsible for some of the St. Andrews pipeline?  James and David Forgan were both prominent early golfers and businessmen in Chicago and were the sons of the famous club maker, Robert Forgan of St. Andrews.   James Forgan was the same age as Watson.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I believe you need to ask yourselves when was the apparent start date regards obtaining Scottish Pro’s Green Keepers/Club Makers.

Once you have that resolved then you may find central character(s) appearing to know the parties concerned and perhaps you will have some if not all the answers you seek.

WAS there correspondence between the USA and St Andrews, well yes. Was is from Chicago, well was CBM based there in your timeline.

It certainly was happening in other parts in Scotland, Ireland and England pre 1890 but then the question was to do with Chicago.

[DMoriarty]

Melvyn,

Golf apparently ot started around Chicago around 1892 and 1893 with the creation in 1892 by CBM of the rudimentary course that eventually became Ontwentsia Club, the golf exhibition at the 1893 World's Fair in Jackson Park,  and with the creation of the first course of the Chicago Golf Club in 1892 and the expansion of that course to 18 holes in 1893 (the course would later to become Belmont when CGC moved.)    Among the seven charter members of Chicago Golf Club were CBM and James Berwick Forgan, son of Robert Forgan, the famous club maker.  Only two of the seven were U.S. citizens.  

A question for you . . . there is a 9 hole course not far from St. Andrews called something like the Cupar Club, and according to the Club's website its current course was created in the early 1890's.  Do you know anything about the history of the course, like who created it?

I ask because William Watson's family was from Dura Den, and while Watson's father was a member of the R&A, they also belonged to and played out of this club.  Watson looks to have been the club champion at least a few times.

As an aside, another of the charter members of the CGC was "J.G. Watson."

Thanks.  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Cupar was in play in the mid 1850's and the original course was by Allan Robertson.  Somewhere I also have some info, not a lot, but its a newspaper article, I see it is near the top of my file mess, if so I post it. But Cupar is down to Allan but not with Old Tom.

Melvyn

[Melvyn Morrow]

Just found a few from 1860's , I will keep looking but I think it has some info you may be seeking.

Melvyn

5.05.1863



25.04.1864



9.10.1866

[Tom MacWood]

TomM

That the pros eventually used their own connections makes sense, as does the fact that they brought over family members.  Still though Watson is a mystery.   I've never seen any indication that he worked as a professional in Scotland or England before coming over.  Have you?   Yet he seems to have been working almost immediately upon his arrival, as if he came over with a job arranged.  
________________________


I wonder if the Forgan family was responsible for some of the St. Andrews pipeline?  James and David Forgan were both prominent early golfers and businessmen in Chicago and were the sons of the famous club maker, Robert Forgan of St. Andrews.   James Forgan was the same age as Watson.

David
I agree, Watson is a mystery man. He does not fit the mold of the others, but he was also arguably the most successful of the bunch. There is absolutely no evidence he was a pro in Scotland, and once he got to the States there is no evidence he was much of a golfer. I've seen less then a handful of competitive entires, and all in the 1890s, and no success to speak of. He is similar to Tom Bendelow in that way. My guess is he and his father, who was an experienced manufacturer, thought they could make a killing in an emerging market as club-makers, and making new golf course is the best way to create demand.

Watson's father was John Cobb Watson, and he was a member of the R&A. He is in that famous painting, with all the other members, when Balfour is teeing off.

[DMoriarty]

Melvyn,  Thank you for posting those interesting articles.   I noticed that both articles mention that the meetings took place on Tailabout Links, which I believe is now called Ladybank Links.   This is consistent with the 1887-88 Golfing Annual which mentions that the  Cupar Golf Club competitions are held over Ladybank Links.  (The article also mentions that the lowest scratch score in competition was recorded by J.C. Watson, who shot a 75 in 1880.   J.C. Watson was William Watson's father.)

Robert Forgan's Golfer's Handbook (1881) indicated that the "Peripatetic Cup" was played over "the Links of St. Andrews" and Leven in alternating years.  Other cups are mentioned but not location of competitions.  (Watson and his father are mentioned as recent winners of cups.)  It also mentioned "The Club play in Springfield House Park, which is romantically situated, and makes very good golfing ground in the Spring and Autumn when the grass is not too long." So far as I can tell Springfield House is near (or part of) a mental institution up the road a bit, and is not the current location of the course.

So it seems that the club was in existence very early on (1855) but I am not sure the current course was in existence.  The website says the course was created in 1892, but it looks as if they were improving what could have been the current course a few years earlier.  The Watsons were very involved in the Club, and were apparently two of the best golfers there.
________________________________

Tom M.  

I had figured that J.C. Watson was his father but did not realize he was in that picture.

One more possible Chicago connection . . . I mentioned that another of the charter members of Chicago Golf Club was "J.G. Watson."  In Forgan's Golfer's Handbook James Graham Watson of Edinburgh was listed as a member of The R&A.  Not sure if it is the same guy but it might be.  

[Rich Goodale]

David (and Melvyn)

The current course at Cupar was built in 1892, http://www.scotlandgolf.com/scotlandgolfcourses/a-c/cupargolfcourse.html and is about a mile from the original Tailabout site (near the road to St. Andrews).  Given that Ladybank Golf Club (3 or so miles south of Cupar) was opened (OTM design) in 1879, it is not unreasonable to assume that CGC played some of their competitions at Ladybank.  When playing the curent Cupar course, having one leg shorter than the other is a distinct advantage, and one is advised to carry pitons and belaying gear if your such a purist as to eschew golf carts......

Rich

Oh yes, as to the original question.  There are also strong Carnoustie and Dornoch connections in Chicago golf in the late 19th-early 20th century.  Why?  To paraphrase the immortal bank robber Wille Sutton, "That's where the money was!"

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Rich.  Any ideas on who created the current course? 

[Tom MacWood]

Oh yes, as to the original question.  There are also strong Carnoustie and Dornoch connections in Chicago golf in the late 19th-early 20th century.  Why?  To paraphrase the immortal bank robber Wille Sutton, "That's where the money was!"

?
A strong Dornoch connection in Chicago? There were relatively few Dornoch professionals who made their way to the States, who made up the Chicago contingent?

[Tom MacWood]

David
I believe JG Watson was John G. Watson. I haven't been able to find much on him, but I get the impression he was an Englishman. He was active in Cricket, and purchased US corporate bonds for British investors. He must have dies in the late 1890s because his trail goes cold. I found a short blurb in 1904 that called him the late John G. Watson. He was also involved at Owentsia.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()