[Tom MacWood]

The Foulis brothers, the Turpie brothers, Fred Herd, William Watson, and I think brother too, but they all came from St. Andrews to Chicago in the 1890s.

Was there one person responsible for them all coming to Chicago? CB Macdonald? James Forgan?

[Adam Clayman]

[Buck Wolter]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/glen-echo-country-club/

Designed by the 1896 U.S. Open Champion Jim Foulis, and built by he and his brother Robert, Glen Echo is among a handful of great classic courses that have retained the charm and characteristics not found in many of today’s ‘modern’ layouts. Robert would design and/or build over a dozen St. Louis area and midwestern courses, including the original Bellerive CC, Onwentsia in Chicago, Lake Geneva CC, Minikahda, Jefferson City CC, Sunset CC just to name a few. Jim, who was the first golf professional in the western U.S. when hired by C.B. Macdonald at the Chicago GC in 1894, designed such courses as the original St. Louis CC, Denver CC and several in the Chicago area. Born and raised in St. Andrews, Scotland, the brothers were taught their craft by none other than Old Tom Morris as Robert worked in his shop for years and it was Old Tom who gave him his first design contract in the early 1890′s for a nearby club. It was also Old Tom who Charles Blair Macdonald contacted looking for a professional for his new Chicago GC. Old Tom initially recommended Robert, but when he respectfully declined, Jim came in his place. Robert followed shortly in 1895 and his first contract was the nine holes at Lake Forest GC, Onwentsia today.

[Tom MacWood]

I don't believe James Foulis came over until 1895. Was he then responsible for brining the others over? Did these men from St. Andrews have similar backgrounds?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Have you checked out Jim's interview http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/jim-healey-july-2003/

[Tom MacWood]

Yes I did read that interview, but it really doesn't explain the circumstances that led to all the others coming over or how the pipeline came to be. For example William Watson, who was associated with one or more of the Foulis brothers on design work. I've not seen anything about why Watson came over. Its my understanding his background was completely different; he attended St. Andrews University.

[Adam Clayman]

In "100 years of Chicago golf' (I think that was the title) the author states that it was the Columbian expo that brought the people that would ultimately help CBM finance the first 18 holer in the U.S.

[Tom MacWood]

CBM tells the story how golf began Chicago in his book, and the World's Fair was a factor, as he explains, but it was much more complicated than that, and how does the Fair explain the question asked by this thread? How did the St. Andrews to Chicago pipeline come to be...if there was a pipeline. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Some were via Old Tom from the early 1890's. If involved in golf Old Tom would be the guy in the know back then.  Many worked for him and he sent many around the country (UK that is) to assist on golf course design.  So a St Andrews contact I presume it must be Old Tom as he was known for that very thing in his day.

[Bill_McBride]

It seems quite likely, knowing CBM's connection through his time there at the university and learning golf from Old and Young Tom Morris, that he would have contacted Old Tom when it became apparent that American golf needed old world golf professionals to teach Americans all phases of the game.   Club makers, course designers, teaching pros, green keepers, club professionals - all these were needed to grow the game while teaching the first generation of American players and professionals. 

[Rick Shefchik]

According to Tony Pioppi's research in a forthcoming book about The Minikahda Club, William Watson came to the U.S. through Canada. He was hired to build the Minikahda course in 1898 by club founder C.T. Jaffray, himself a native-born Canadian. Martin Watson followed William to Minneapolis in 1900 as the club's instructor, and split time between Minikahda and the new Lafayette Club on Lake Minnetonka. Both Watsons wintered in California, and did not return to Minikahda after 1902.

[Tom MacWood]

According to Tony Pioppi's research in a forthcoming book about The Minikahda Club, William Watson came to the U.S. through Canada. He was hired to build the Minikahda course in 1898 by club founder C.T. Jaffray, himself a native-born Canadian. Martin Watson followed William to Minneapolis in 1900 as the club's instructor, and split time between Minikahda and the new Lafayette Club on Lake Minnetonka. Both Watsons wintered in California, and did not return to Minikahda after 1902.

Rick
I have never been able to find a US immigration record of William Watson coming to America from Scotland, so the Canadian story makes some sense. However in your book you quote an April 12, 1899 article that said Watson had just come to America from Scotland a few months earlier, and goes on to say after a few months in Chicago he came to Minikahda in February. WW Watson based in Montreal, Canada, who Tony thinks is William, is not the same man.

Martin came over in 1899 along with their father, who was quite a character in his own right. He was a member of the R&A. The old man eventually relocated in Pasadena with William.  

[Adam Clayman]

IMO, and apparently, in CBM's world, there might have been a connection, but that was quickly stifled as the spirit of Chicagoans took over the sport and made it their own game.

The loss of Freedom in architecture can probably be traced right back to the courses that sprang up. CGC asside.

[DMoriarty]

IMO, and apparently, in CBM's world, there might have been a connection, but that was quickly stifled as the spirit of Chicagoans took over the sport and made it their own game.

The loss of Freedom in architecture can probably be traced right back to the courses that sprang up. CGC asside.

I don't understand either of these points.  Care to elaborate?

[Adam_Messix]

Tom MacWood--

Is George Turpie one of the Turpie brothers you are thinking of?  He was the first pro and designed the original New Orleans CC. 

[Tom MacWood]

Yes, George and Harry Turpie, who both relocated to New Orleans early on, and who each were at one time the head pro at NOCC, although apparently Harry was the first pro, not George. Here is a link to an early article on the formation of NOCC written by the club's first president. I've been able to discover at the time the article was written (1919) George was the pro.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4-sxAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA25&dq=%22new+orleans+country+club%22+and+carroll&hl=en&sa=X&ei=l4fFT-ytHoOvsQKO97yjBg&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22new%20orleans%20country%20club%22%20and%20carroll&f=false

[Adam_Messix]

Tom Mac Wood

I am going to forward your article to the current and immediate past pros at NOCC who are both friends of mine and I will take the time to read it because they told me about George Turpie being the original designer and first pro.  They may have additional source info or club records that neither you or I have seen.

As an aside, the current NOCC course is fun and no pushover and great use of small acreage.

[Tom MacWood]

Adam
From what I've been able to gather it is a very interesting course, and without doubt the premier club in town. On the USGA museum site I found a couple of American Golfer articles dealing with the club's early formation. The January 1914 article confirms a lot of the information about how the site was found, purchased and who was involved; the May 1914 article reports that Harry Turpie had been hired as the first professional.

[DMoriarty]

According to William Watson's Naturalization application (1919,) he arrived in NYC via Liverpool in November 1899.  In December 1899, he was reportedly working at the Green Hotel in Pasadena, CA, and had just recently arrived from St. Andrews. 

Does he have the date wrong? 

[Sean_A]

Tommy Mac

Do you have a copy of Tom Morris of St Andrews: The Colossus Of Golf?  I recall the authors discussing the many letters of recommendations Old Tom wrote on behalf of caddies to obtain positions in the USA.  The book is worth getting anyway as its very good.

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

David
November 1898 would make more sense. There are records of him being in Minneapolis as early as April and July of 1899, and before that he was in Chicago. All his census records (from 1900 to 1930) have him arriving in the United States 1898.

Sean
I don't have that book, but The Golf Course has one of OTM's letters of recommendation from 1893, for Robert Foulis. That one is pretty generic (and its not addressed to anyone in particular) so its hard to garner anything from it, other than the emphasis on club-making skills. You had a lot of club-making ability coming out of St.Andrews from Old Tom's and Forgan's shops. Watson was a skilled club-maker too although I'm not sure how that came to be based on his very different background. He was college educated; his father owned a flax mill outside St. Andrews.

[DMoriarty]

Tom,

It could be that he has the date wrong by a year.  He seems to have thought he arrived through New York, though, and not Canada.   

I've never seen anything indicating a connection, but CBM was just a few years older than Watson, and Watson was a pretty solid player so it is possible their paths may have crossed while CBM was studying at St. Andrews.   Watson was from a nearby town (Dura Den) but as you have said his father was a member of the R&A. 

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

It could be that he has the date wrong by a year.  He seems to have thought he arrived through New York, though, and not Canada.  

I've never seen anything indicating a connection, but CBM was just a few years older than Watson, and Watson was a pretty solid player so it is possible their paths may have crossed while CBM was studying at St. Andrews.   Watson was from a nearby town (Dura Den) but as you have said his father was a member of the R&A.  

David
I did some searching on that ancestry site and he actually petitioned twice for naturalization, 1919 and 1926. In the second petition he has changed the date to 1898, and there is a copy of the previous petition with '1898' written in the margin near where he'd previously written 1899. In both petitions he even gives the name of the ship he took from Liverpool to NY, RMS Etruria. I found that boat arrived in NY twice around that time, but I still can't find him on the records. I suspect his name is somehow jacked up.

I agree, it seems pretty clear he came in through NY, and not Canada. I've never seen a connection to CBM either. I'm curious why he apparently went to Chicago first before going to Minneapolis.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom Mac Wood

I am going to forward your article to the current and immediate past pros at NOCC who are both friends of mine and I will take the time to read it because they told me about George Turpie being the original designer and first pro.  They may have additional source info or club records that neither you or I have seen.

As an aside, the current NOCC course is fun and no pushover and great use of small acreage.

Adam
Feel free to give them my contact info. I will be glad forward to them what I have on NOCC.  I have quite a bit of info on Barker too, and NOCC fits his typcial profile of client.

thomas.macwood@sbcglobal.net

[TEPaul]

I see nothing on Willie Watson but there appears to be a certain amount of surviving correspondence on a number of other early professionals mentioned here on this thread including the Foulis brothers.

It appears this correspondence is in and around Shinnecock (Shinnecock's archives) and it includes correspondence from 1893 to 1896 between Samuel Parrish, Thomas Barber and Edward Mead of Shinnecock on this side involving the selections of professionals from abroad to America. It includes the mention of James and Robert Foulis, Andrew Kirkcaldy, Willie Park Jr and John D. Dunn.

The correspondence from the other side includes some of those mentioned as well as Old Tom Morris and particularly a man by the name of Henry White. Henry White, also known as the Marquis of Granby, was with the American Legation in London but he was also the editor of the UK's Golf magazine.

In other words, it appears when the likes of Parrish, Barber and Mead wanted information abroad on golf professionals around 1893-1896 their first step was to contact Henry White of the American Legation in London.

It also appears from the above that James Foulis went to the Chicago GC in 1893 and that his brother Robert followed him around this time and went to Onwentsia GC. Robert Foulis was recommended by White for Shinnecock but obviously he went to Chicago and Onwentsia. In 1895 Andrew Kirkcaldy was recommended to join Willie Dunn at Shinnecock but he declined citing a match abroad against J.H. Taylor. It also appears Shinnecock did not have a professional in 1893 or since the departure of Willie Davis in 1892 until Willie Dunn came to the club in 1894. In 1896 Dunn departed Shinnecock to go to Ardsley Casino and Shinnecock's next professional in 1896 was a man by the name of R.B. Wilson.

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