Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed...& 16...& 14

[TEPaul]

"With respect to the location of the old green, relative to the new green, go to historicaerials.com and look at the 1968 aerial.
I believe it shows the old green next to the new green."



Pat:

It's nice to see you've become capable of actually retaining things I teach you (Post #89) but it isn't necessary for you to repeat them on here once I've already mentioned them. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Thanks, Pat. Isnt that aerial already in the carousel?
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGCmulti.html

In addition to 1968, I believe the old green appears in the 1964, 1979, and 1983 aerials; however, not in the 1995, where the driving range appears to have been extended towards 18 green, consuming the old green in the process.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I've long felt that old practice green between the range tee and the 18th green might've been a vestige of Ross's 18th green. I have also felt that one reason the original 18th green may've been moved left and up into the dune was because it was a bit too close to the range when it really became used.

As I recall Ross's plan, he had space for a range to the left of #1 and to the right of #10 and he also had a most interesting crescent-shaped shared/melded tee for #1 and #10.

I suppose some used the area left of #1 to practice and there was a funny story quite a while ago that Hogan would occassionally hit balls from over there right over the beginning of the 1st and 10th and into the range to the right of #10, until some members complained about it and he was asked to not do something like that no matter how good he was as it was a bit disconerting to some trying to tee off on #1 and #10.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Since the practice tee was so close to the old 18th green, it made sense to retain it for bunker and chipping/pitching practice.

But, as the need for an expanded practice tee grew, the old 18th green had to go, especially since it remained in play for those on # 18, especially in the prevailing wind out of the SE/S

[Joe Jemsek]

While working Joe Lee's (Dick Wilson's partner) design office, I learned to draft plans by coping the old Seminole plans in the office. Follow the link to a picture of color rendering for the renovations http://www.jemsekgolfdesign.com/services.html#anchor_80 . The map was produced sometime after 1961 by Elizabeth "Betty" Peter, Joe and Dick's long-time designer. I know Wilson and Lee moved the 3rd and 18th greens as well as rebuilt the bunkers. Lee continued to consult for the club as well as other Ross courses around FLA like CC of Orlando, Gulf Stream, and Riviera CC(Miami) until Silva became the expert at “restoring” the Ross courses. Note current locations for #3 and #18, but bunker locations and sizes must have changed in the field.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Oh my goodness!

Joe, I just emailed your GMail account.

[JC Jones]

Awesome!

Hopefully we can find a way to ensure preservation of that drawing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

If the colorized schematic is accurate in date, circa 1961, even though I can't get the resolution I'd like, it appears that the greensite is the old site, thus indicating that the green was moved between 1961 and 1964.

It would be great to get aerials from 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964 so that the precise year of change can be determined.