[Rick Shefchik]

Wouldn't the "finish within 10 minutes" rule work if modified to "tee off 18 before the group ahead leaves the green"?

Those will obviously yield similar results, though I don't know why you wouldn't want to focus on the total time, which is both cleaner/quantifiable and which accounts for groups that play 18 really slowly.  Also, at my course, the person sitting next to the 18th green isn't able to see the 18th tee box, so you'd have to figure out a way to know when the group behind has teed off on 18. 

Yes, it would be difficult to monitor if you can't see the tee from the green. I made the suggestion as a possible solution to Bill's concern about falling behind on the final hole because of a couple of balls OB or in a hazard. Earlier on the course, you've got a chance to make up those lost ten minutes; under Patrick's system (which I like), you can't make them up on 18.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What some of you don't understand is that once "A" group takes 4:50, all the groups behind will take 4:50 or longer.

If you're serious about slow play, my method WORKS.

Not in the recesses of your minds, but on the golf course where it counts

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Smolensk,

Your method is cumbersome with too many moving parts and relies on volunteers and individual judgement.

My method is simplistic and pure, like mathematics

[JMEvensky]

If the PGAT was really interested in speeding up play,play would get sped up.Their rules are such that penalties could be imposed to insure nobody would slow play for long.

But,neither Finchem nor the officials has used all the weapons at their disposal.

Why not? It looks like enough people are satisfied with the current state.

Who gets hurt if the final group in a PGAT event finishes in 3:30 or 3:45? TV? Sponsors?

[Jason Thurman]

I agree Mucci's method can work. If our only real concern with it is a player "blowing up" on 18, hitting one OB and then a few into the water to be unable to finish within the 10 minute limit, then I doubt the stroke penalty makes too much of a difference to him anyway. Personally, I'd be fine with some common sense selective enforcement in the case of someone making a 12 on the last hole anyways. It's pretty easy to differentiate between slow play and poor play that takes a lot of time.

Carl, I can understand your concerns at the club level but I can't see Kevin Na and Ben Crane picking up on 17 to avoid getting a slow time on Tour.

[Phil McDade]

If the PGAT was really interested in speeding up play,play would get sped up.Their rules are such that penalties could be imposed to insure nobody would slow play for long.

But,neither Finchem nor the officials has used all the weapons at their disposal.

Why not? It looks like enough people are satisfied with the current state.

Who gets hurt if the final group in a PGAT event finishes in 3:30 or 3:45? TV? Sponsors?

I'm beginning to think -- and this may take this thread a bit off-tangent -- that Tour golf as we know it may be at a tipping point, in terms of popularity, Tour purses, TV revenue, and overall interest in watching the game. And I'd suggest slow play may be one of the straws that breaks a back or two.

Tiger appears on the downside of his career. No one from the market that matters for the Tour -- the American one -- appears to be taking his place (maybe McIlroy, but I'd argue he's a Euro without the kind of hold on the American golfing public that Palmer/Nicklaus/Tiger had). The game as televised -- with a few exceptions (the Masters, the Tour championship at Sawgrasss, the US and British Open) -- is played for the most part on undistinguished or undistinguishable courses. The Tour suffers from an extraordinarily bifurcated market -- with some Tour stops featuring the big names (Tiger, Mickelson, McIlroy) and others with a bunch of no-names.

In short, the game seems less enjoyable to watch than it did a decade or so ago, and slow play plays a role in that.

I think the players on Tour will be among the last people to recognize this. They often defend their slow play on the grounds of: I'm playing for my living here. What if that standard of living is on the verge of imploding, or being available to a lot fewer of them?

[Carl Nichols]

I agree Mucci's method can work. If our only real concern with it is a player "blowing up" on 18, hitting one OB and then a few into the water to be unable to finish within the 10 minute limit, then I doubt the stroke penalty makes too much of a difference to him anyway. Personally, I'd be fine with some common sense selective enforcement in the case of someone making a 12 on the last hole anyways. It's pretty easy to differentiate between slow play and poor play that takes a lot of time.

Carl, I can understand your concerns at the club level but I can't see Kevin Na and Ben Crane picking up on 17 to avoid getting a slow time on Tour.

Not my concern -- it's Dave's.  I've seen it happen (i.e., a slow group speeds up on 18 to try to get under the 4:00), but:  (1) if a group thinks it can really get under the alloted time by playing a single hole fast, they can't be more than 5-10 minutes behind (or they're really bad at math); and (2) the group behind is usually right on their a** anyway, is happy to be able to play one hole without waiting, and can still finish within the 10 minute window.
  

[JMEvensky]

In short, the game seems less enjoyable to watch than it did a decade or so ago, and slow play plays a role in that.

I think the players on Tour will be among the last people to recognize this. They often defend their slow play on the grounds of: I'm playing for my living here. What if that standard of living is on the verge of imploding, or being available to a lot fewer of them?

I agree with you--this is kind of where I was going with my question.

For whatever reason,the PGAT accepted slow play for a long time.Now it seems like they're the only ones not taking any steps to resolve it.At least the USGA and R & A say the right things publicly.

That all said,guys who play for a living really are different from the rest of us.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

This isn't necessarily a bad thing.  It's only gonna be when what they care about, their wallet, is threatened that they will gather up the sack to actually address issues like this.

[Garland Bayley]

I don't know about the rest of you, but watching golfers thinking about hitting a shot is bad TV.

I do not agree. Hearing the player and caddie have an intense conversation on the shot is great TV.

Only .02% of viewers even understand what they are talking about. Number made up, but what is great for you is wasted time to the majority.

[Bill Seitz]

I agree Mucci's method can work. If our only real concern with it is a player "blowing up" on 18, hitting one OB and then a few into the water to be unable to finish within the 10 minute limit, then I doubt the stroke penalty makes too much of a difference to him anyway. Personally, I'd be fine with some common sense selective enforcement in the case of someone making a 12 on the last hole anyways. It's pretty easy to differentiate between slow play and poor play that takes a lot of time.

The stroke penalty doesn't matter to the guy who made the 12, but it matters to the guy(s) in his group who are also penalized (unfairly, in my opinion).  The problem with selective enforcement is that it's selective.  If it's sometimes OK to not technically follow the rule, then before long it will ALWAYS be OK to not technically follow the rule.  Once you start applying the rule sometimes, but not other times, then it ceases being a fair rule.  There are all kinds of things that happens in tournaments where a player breaks a rule and receives no benefit.  But we still penalize those guys.  We don't say "we'll let it go this time because it didn't have an impact" or "we understand what happened and it didn't violate the spirit of the rule".  If a rule is broken, you get penalized. 

[jeffwarne]

The rule at my club is all rounds must be completed in 4 hours, unless you tee off before 8am on the weekends, when rounds must be completed in either 3:40 or 3:50, depending on how early you go.  (You can finish over the allotted time only if the group ahead is slow and you finish within 10 minutes of that group.) 

We police this exactly the way Pat is suggesting -- the starter notes when groups tee off, and we have someone on 18 recording when groups finish, so you know how long each group takes to play.  Most weekends the entire tee sheet gets posted in the locker room; at a minimum, the sheet gets posted when a group violates the rule.  Letters also get sent to offenders. 

The peer pressure is quite strong -- just about everyone wants to avoid having his/her name next to a bad time.  The only downside I've seen is that some people seem to feel that it's completely acceptable to play in 3:59 on a Wednesday afternoon when the course is wide open, since they're complying with a pace-of-play rule that's faster than most places around (and certainly than the tour).   

I've seen this system.  The only drawback to it is that the slow foursomes will often pick up and play in real fast on 18 to make their time.  So they cause 17 holes of misery for the people behind them, and fly through under the radar on 18.  I've actually seen groups that are extremely slow pick up on 17 to make the time, and then when the group behind them comes in 20 minutes later, it looks like THEY were the ones who were behind...

Conversely, you can be waiting all day on the group in front(and be barely on pace), then have a guy lose a couple balls on 17 or 18 and be unable to make your time. (through no fault of 2 of the three in the group)
That's where officials in tournaments or an experienced club professional in club play are needed.

[Joe Stansell]

I like Pat's system a lot -- for private clubs especially. It seems to me that it would be easy for a club to track statistics player-by-player and then weed the slower ones out over time, through pure humiliation, if nothing else. I've also heard about a system that is being deployed in Australia where every group carries a simple gps device that tracks their progress -- that system would easily identify those situations where a group is in position until the very end of a round.

I also think Pat's system has merit for professionals but I acknowledge Bill Seitz's point that it might wind up penalizing completely innocent players. It seems to me that a rules official could be empowered to vacate a slow-play penalty "in equity," especially if the confessed slow player makes the request on behalf of the others in his group. The rules official could also refer to the shot statistics to determine whether you're dealing with a 24-second per shot guy or 56-second per shot guy, giving lenience to the former but not the latter. 

[John_Cullum]

For whatever reason,the PGAT accepted slow play for a long time.Now it seems like they're the only ones not taking any steps to resolve it.

You need to keep in mind that the PGA Tour is 100% owned and controlled by the players. Tim Finchem works for the players. The Rules Officials work for the players. The players fund the payroll and have the power to hire and fire the officials.

The players are playing at the pace they have chosen for themselves.

[JMEvensky]

For whatever reason,the PGAT accepted slow play for a long time.Now it seems like they're the only ones not taking any steps to resolve it.

You need to keep in mind that the PGA Tour is 100% owned and controlled by the players. Tim Finchem works for the players. The Rules Officials work for the players. The players fund the payroll and have the power to hire and fire the officials.

The players are playing at the pace they have chosen for themselves.

I understand this--Finchem probably didn't gloss over the slow play issue last week without thinking that his players don't consider slow play a big deal.

You almost get the feeling that Finchem has incorrectly counted votes--maybe more players are concerned about this than he thinks.There's an awful lot of smoke for there to be no fire at all.

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

This isn't necessarily a bad thing.  It's only gonna be when what they care about, their wallet, is threatened that they will gather up the sack to actually address issues like this.

Jud:

I agree; oftentimes in many enterprises, those at the very heart of the thing are the last ones to realize the danger that is present. The UAW comes to mind, in many ways.

But as Sarge correctly notes, the Tour is pretty much self-run; the trend in slow play maybe isn't by overt design, but it's certainly by benign neglect.

[Jason Thurman]

I agree Mucci's method can work. If our only real concern with it is a player "blowing up" on 18, hitting one OB and then a few into the water to be unable to finish within the 10 minute limit, then I doubt the stroke penalty makes too much of a difference to him anyway. Personally, I'd be fine with some common sense selective enforcement in the case of someone making a 12 on the last hole anyways. It's pretty easy to differentiate between slow play and poor play that takes a lot of time.

The stroke penalty doesn't matter to the guy who made the 12, but it matters to the guy(s) in his group who are also penalized (unfairly, in my opinion).  The problem with selective enforcement is that it's selective.  If it's sometimes OK to not technically follow the rule, then before long it will ALWAYS be OK to not technically follow the rule.  Once you start applying the rule sometimes, but not other times, then it ceases being a fair rule.  There are all kinds of things that happens in tournaments where a player breaks a rule and receives no benefit.  But we still penalize those guys.  We don't say "we'll let it go this time because it didn't have an impact" or "we understand what happened and it didn't violate the spirit of the rule".  If a rule is broken, you get penalized. 

I get that Bill. But you're getting at the heart of why slow play rules are difficult to enforce.

The rules of golf have pace of play rules: Be ready to play, keep up with the group in front, no more than 5 minutes to search for a lost ball. The committee can determine pace of play guidelines for an event.

The rule we're discussing is an additional rule which would have to be implemented by a committee to enforce the rules already on the books.

The problem is that my group might keep pace for 17 holes and I'm two strokes clear in a tournament. I pull my tee shot near a hospitality tent. In accordance with the rules of golf for keeping pace of play, I hit a provisional.

I spend four of my allotted five minutes finding my first ball, locate it, and hit another poor shot. But I get my third onto the green, and my playing partners putt out because they're playing ready golf. I hole my final putt. Celebration ensues, and then... we realize that I holed my putt 10:30 after the last group finished. I get docked a stroke because of a committee rule designed to enforce rules already on the books for pace of play, which I followed to a t.

Now, that may be exactly how this policy is supposed to work, but if so, it's stupid. And if the goal is to improve watchability of the Tour, it just failed. We've seen in the last 15 years how frequently people hit awful shots on the 18th hole of a major. A rule like this would ABSOLUTELY decide the fate of a major championship someday, and when that happens golf will lose a ton of viewers.

You have to give the committee some discretion if it implements a rule designed to enforce a rule, or not have the rule at all. The better method for the Tour would be to just ENFORCE the rules they already have. There's nothing wrong with putting someone on the clock and hitting them with a penalty two holes later. The problem is that it's not enforced.

[Phil McDade]

Jason:

Can't one argue -- I might -- that the discretionary nature of the rules in place are the very reason they aren't being used? Pat and other seem to suggest that a field-wide, mandatory enforcement mechanism is the only way to get at this.

[Jason Thurman]

Phil,

There's nothing discretionary. The rules are in place and very clear. Keep pace with the group in front, five minutes for a lost ball. The only thing really discretionary is how quickly the first group should finish, so maybe we set Pat's 3:50 time limit for them. If they arrive at the final hole with no time to spare, it's their own fault.

It's clear enough to the Tour when they need to put players on the clock. They just chicken out when it's time to penalize a stroke two holes later in accordance with the rules of golf.

[Bill Seitz]

Jason:

Can't one argue -- I might -- that the discretionary nature of the rules in place are the very reason they aren't being used? Pat and other seem to suggest that a field-wide, mandatory enforcement mechanism is the only way to get at this.

I actually agree with Pat on that.  I don't think you can enforce this rule selectively, because once you do, someone is going to get penalized for a transgression that less egregious than something done by a player who did not get penalized.  There are, at some level, judgment calls in golf (did the player ground his club, did he move a lose impediment in a hazard, etc.), but the judgment is made to determine a fact.  Once the rules official (or the player) decides, the rule is strictly applied to the determined facts.  In legal terms, the official is the jury (triers of fact), and the rule book is the judge.  I don't like making rules officials the judges.  

I think Pat's rule just needs to be tweaked so that a) innocent players don't get penalized because of their pairing, and b) a group isn't judged based on one hole which may not have been representative of the rest of the round.  

[Ken Moum]

Who would time the 150 or so players ?

There's not enough staff.

The tour is already recording the time for EVERY SINGLE SHOT made in competition.  It's part of the Shotlink system.

I believe the numbers in the first post here were generated by Shotlink.

K

[David Whitmer]

At the private club where I was the pro, we did not have a slow-play policy for everyday play. However, I implemented one for the few big members' events where tee times were used, and it worked very well. Here's how it worked:

I stationed an official behind the fifth green. He had a tee sheet, and knew when every group teed off. When that group holed out on #5, he calculated how long it took them to play the first five holes. The target amount of time was one hour and five minutes. If it took a group longer than that to play the first five holes, and the group in front of them was under the target time, the entire group was put on the clock. The official told them they were on the clock, and he proceeded to follow them. If any one player took more than 30 seconds to hit his shot once he was in position to play and had pulled a club, that individual was assessed a two-stroke penalty. The official followed them until they caught back up to the group in front of them. Once they did, the official went back to his station behind #5 green.

In addition to that official, I stationed a guy behind the ninth green. That target time was two hours and five minutes.

I stationed a third guy behind the thirteenth green. That target time was three hours and five minutes.

The very first year I implemented this, I had to penalize a guy for a bad time. In the six years after that, not only was no one ever penalized, but only one other time was a group even put on the clock. Almost without fail, every group finished in under four hours. I gotta be honest and pat myself on the back on this one...it was one of the best policies I ever implemented while there. The players loved it. They knew play would move, because the slower players knew I would not hesitate to penalize someone if they earned a penalty.

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

There's nothing discretionary. The rules are in place and very clear. Keep pace with the group in front, five minutes for a lost ball. The only thing really discretionary is how quickly the first group should finish, so maybe we set Pat's 3:50 time limit for them. If they arrive at the final hole with no time to spare, it's their own fault.

It's clear enough to the Tour when they need to put players on the clock. They just chicken out when it's time to penalize a stroke two holes later in accordance with the rules of golf.

Jason:

Not to nit-pick, but rules that haven't been enforced -- in terms of stroke penalties -- since 1995 strike me as discretionary.

I drive all the time on Wisconsin's highways. Not infrequently, I drive over the posted speed limit. But, I try not to abuse this too often, or by too much, and the frequently stopped cars on the side of the road (often from Illinois ) by our state's finest suggest the speed limit is being enforced, and thus it's not a discretionary law. Maybe discriminatory toward our friends from the south, but not discretionary.

[Carl Nichols]

At the private club where I was the pro, we did not have a slow-play policy for everyday play. However, I implemented one for the few big members' events where tee times were used, and it worked very well. Here's how it worked:

I stationed an official behind the fifth green. He had a tee sheet, and knew when every group teed off. When that group holed out on #5, he calculated how long it took them to play the first five holes. The target amount of time was one hour and five minutes. If it took a group longer than that to play the first five holes, and the group in front of them was under the target time, the entire group was put on the clock. The official told them they were on the clock, and he proceeded to follow them. If any one player took more than 30 seconds to hit his shot once he was in position to play and had pulled a club, that individual was assessed a two-stroke penalty. The official followed them until they caught back up to the group in front of them. Once they did, the official went back to his station behind #5 green.

In addition to that official, I stationed a guy behind the ninth green. That target time was two hours and five minutes.

I stationed a third guy behind the thirteenth green. That target time was three hours and five minutes.

The very first year I implemented this, I had to penalize a guy for a bad time. In the six years after that, not only was no one ever penalized, but only one other time was a group even put on the clock. Almost without fail, every group finished in under four hours. I gotta be honest and pat myself on the back on this one...it was one of the best policies I ever implemented while there. The players loved it. They knew play would move, because the slower players knew I would not hesitate to penalize someone if they earned a penalty.

David:
I like it a lot for tournament rounds.  While the 4:00 or less rule at my club described above works very well for everyday play, enough people seem to think that it doesn’t apply to tournaments -- even members-only ones -- that they usually take longer than 4:00.  

[Jason Thurman]

Phil, I get what you're saying. But to me, this is like the NBA. Every few years, the players' whining to officials gets out of hand. Or palming of the basketball gets a little too common. When that happens, the league doesn't write new rules. It just places a point of emphasis on the current rules.

There's no reason to write a new rule about pace of play when we already have rules that just aren't being used. Just start enforcing the rules currently on the books and in the official rules of golf.

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