[Matthew Essig]

Having just watched golf central, the announcers were explaining how slow play is being discussed among all pros and tour officials.

With the Na and Pressel issues, I am sure many of you are tired of the slow play problems, but now it is a debate.

Here is the time breakdown of the average times spent on shots on the PGA Tour:
Tee shot: 43 secs
2nd shot on a par 5: 47 secs
Going for the green: 47 secs
Laying up: 43 secs
Approach shots: 45 secs
Around the green: 50 secs
On the green: 33 secs

The average time it takes a tour pro to hit a shot is 38 secs.

So if a player takes longer than a minute to hit a shot that does not take too much planning and execution or any other reason the player might take longer, the player receives a warning. The second time is a penalty. This is fine with me.

What is causing the heated part of the issue is the tour has a list of the slower players. The tour thinks that they might release the list because there is nothing more humiliating than your name being fed to the media and the world, which might make the player change his slow ways. Of course, the players don't want this to happen.

The other part of the heated debate is the tour says that they are going to pay more attention to the slow play... LOL... and use the 60 second rule. Many players don't feel 60 seconds are enough.

How do you all feel about the list and the 60 second rule?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mathew,

The Tour is attempting to Micro manage slow play.

I feel Macro management is the better solution.

Time when ball is in the air at tee off on first tee, time ball is holed out on 18.

Take the time differential.

For twosomes, let's say the target time is 3:40 and that groups tee of in 10 minute intervals.

If a group takes more than 3:40 and is more than 10 minutes behind the group in front, first offense, a fine.
Second offense, fine and two stroke penalty.
Third offense, fine and 4 shot penalty
Fourth offense, fine and one tournament suspension.

Outcome ?

You won't see anymore slow play

[Jim_Kennedy]

Publishing the list is a childish response to the problem, just penalize them with added strokes.

There is nothing wrong with the 60 second rule, especially given the 38 second average it takes a player to hit his shot.

 

[Dan King]

The penalty needs to be shots, not fines.

I would put every player on a shot clock. I'd start with 18 seconds, and eventually reduce it down to 10 seconds.  I would not give them any excuses. You want to take longer, fine, you will just have a shot added to your score.

I don't know about the rest of you, but watching golfers thinking about hitting a shot is bad TV.

Cheers,
Dan King

Slow play is a virus that has been hurting the game for years, and it’s getting worse.
 --Lorne Rubenstein

[Matthew Essig]

I don't know about the rest of you, but watching golfers thinking about hitting a shot is bad TV.

I do not agree. Hearing the player and caddie have an intense conversation on the shot is great TV.

[Dan King]

Matthew Essig writes:
I do not agree. Hearing the player and caddie have an intense conversation on the shot is great TV.

First: Yuck.  I find it shocking (and not in a Captain Renaul way) that anyone would find that interesting. Are there others out there?  I guess it has bothered me for so long, it just never occurred to me that others might like watching all the pre-shot shenanigans.

Second: When I used to watch golf with sound it seemed they didn't let the viewer eavesdrop in conversation between the golfer and caddy. Do they now get audio of that?

Cheers,
Dan King

Benefits should be conferred gradually; and in that way they will taste better.
 --Niccolo Machiavelli

[Matthew Essig]

All the time. The microphones can pick up even the smallest of noises, so the microphones on every tee, with every camera in the fairway, and next to every green pick up every word the player and caddy says, as long as the commotion of the crowd isn't louder than at a pro baseball game and as long as the commentators don't talk over them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The penalty needs to be shots, not fines.

I included shot penalties

I would put every player on a shot clock. I'd start with 18 seconds, and eventually reduce it down to 10 seconds. 

Dan,

Who would time the 150 or so players ?

There's not enough staff.

Your method is impractical and can't be administrated

I would not give them any excuses. You want to take longer, fine, you will just have a shot added to your score.

I don't know about the rest of you, but watching golfers thinking about hitting a shot is bad TV.

[Sean_A]

I too agree with Pat.  The goal is to reduce the time played, not dictate how long one takes over a shot.  3:40 is reasonable for Thurs-Fri and 3:25 for Sat-Sun.  If that is achieved rather easily move the goal posts.  

I also think players should play through slower groups when it makes sense to do so; lost ball, rules controversy or falling an entire hole behind. For instance if a group is teeing off on 5 and the group in front is approaching 6 then if there is a group waiting the slow group is obliged to let those behind play through.  And yes, I would add that down time to their overall time.

Ciao  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

About a month or so ago myself and another fellow were playing in the afternoon and we caught up to a foursome as we were on the 13th green, they had three open holes ahead of them.

As they were keaving the 14th tee, I asked if they minded if we went through.

One fellow said, yes, he minded.
Then he said, "there's nowhere to go"
I said, " there's no one in front of you, you have three holes open ahead of you"
Then he said, "there's only five more holes to play" and proceeded down # 14 fairway.
When they were leaving # 14 green they waived us to play through.
As we approached # 15 tee to go through, the same fellow who wouldn't let us through said, "you know the rules of golf don't give any standing to twosomes". To which I replied, "you need to reread the rule book starting with the chapter on etiquette"
We finished two holes ahead of them.

Whose fault was that incident ?

Wrong.

It's the admission committee's fault.

Conversely, late yesterday afternoon, playing in a foursome, on the 6th tee WE asked the twosome behind us, who were approaching the 5th green  to let us know anytime they wanted to go thru, which they did on the 7th hole.

I don't want people behind me waiting to hit and always ask faster groups thru, but today, the generational  culture of golf somehow sees having to let people thru as some kind of blemish or black mark on their play.  It's almost taboo to let faster groups thru.

Another recent incident had our group behind a foursome of women who happened to be very slow.
On the 4th hole I asked if they wouldn't mind if we went thru.
Their reply, after surveying the course ahead and caucusing ?
We could go thru at the turn.
My reply.  We'd prefer not to have to wait another hour and a half and would prefer to go thru now if they didn't mind, which they surely did. However we did play thru despite some rather nasty looks.  Once thru, we quickly opened up several holes on them.

Slow play has become systemic.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people taking alot of time plumb bobbing,
When I ask them to explain what they're doing, few have an answer.
The other day, a fellow I was playing with kept asking the caddy how his 3 foot putts broke.
Even putts he ran 3 feet by the hole, and yet he would take his time reading them, and then take additional time asking the caddy.

The "TIME DIFFERENTIAL" method is the best method as it's non confrontational, doesn't micro manage every situation, and is irrefutable.

TIME OUT, TIME IN, take the differential and let the math be your guide.

Years ago we implemented this at my home club and in the first year had rounds reduced from about 4:30-4:45 to 4:00 and under.

P.S. A mulligan on the 1st tee counted as a slow play round since we had calculated how much extra time mulligans add to the rounds.

However, no matter what system you introduce to combat slow play, it WON'T work unless there are penalties and you ENFORCE the rules you implement.

End of rant  

[Steve Wilson]

Mathew,

The Tour is attempting to Micro manage slow play.

I feel Macro management is the better solution.

Time when ball is in the air at tee off on first tee, time ball is holed out on 18.

Take the time differential.

For twosomes, let's say the target time is 3:40 and that groups tee of in 10 minute intervals.

If a group takes more than 3:40 and is more than 10 minutes behind the group in front, first offense, a fine.
Second offense, fine and two stroke penalty.
Third offense, fine and 4 shot penalty
Fourth offense, fine and one tournament suspension.

Outcome ?

You won't see anymore slow play

The drawback I see with having a time for the group is you may not know who is causing the problem.  Say you have an average player, a fast player and a sloooooowww players--then everyone gets penalized because of the one slow player.  Granted, this might be a way to develop some meaningful peer pressure on the tour, but since the tour already knows who the worst of the worse are, I think those tortoises need some special attention on every shot until they get with the program. 
 Given the state of the game on the tour today there are no truly fast players because those who do play quickly are held down by all the aggregate delays.  it would be interested to see three fast guys sent off as dewsweepers just to see how far ihow much of a gap they might open up on the groups behind.  Any nomination for such a hare grouping?

Nor do I see why the second player or the third short be allowed as much time as thr first to get their shot airborne.  Presumbably they could be using the first players time also to  factor in in the information required for club selection et cetera.

I await a combative  and green typfaced response.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Can somebody explain how these time measurements are made? Does the clock start when you take your stance and stop when you strike the ball?

If somebody runs (literally) around the course, takes 3 hours to shoot a 70, but takes two minutes to play every shot, is that considered slow play? Surely just focusing on the time to execute the shot is wrong.

[Jim Franklin]

I nominate Pat as the new PGA Tour commissioner. You are spot on and I agree with your slow play ideas. If someone is faster, let them play through.

[Jeff Evagues]

A tour player knows exactly which distance he hits each club and knows the exact distance to the front of the green, the hole, and the back of the green. There is no excuse for all the posturing. The average player is another story but Pat has articulated ways to remedy that.

[Giles Payne]

If they know who the slow players are they should seed the field according to speed of play - quickest out first, slowest out last. If the slow ones don't finish before it gets dark they don't play the next day. That should provide a good incentive for the first two rounds of a tournament.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

That's the best part.

That makes the slow player's fellow competitors the "policemen" encouraging and enforcing faster play.

Often, you can't micro manage and determine who the slow player is.
On one hole it could be player # 1, on another, player # 3, and ,on another player # 2.
so you have to treat the entity, the group as the offending party, with shared responsibilities for playing a timely round.

Remember, the penalties are graduated.

If you want, you could have the first offense be a warning.

 In theory you and others will attempt to find flaws in the TIMEOUT/TIMEIN & DIFFERENTIAL METHOD.

But, I KNOW, WHEN IMPLEMENTED, IT WORKS

And it works immediately and perpetually as long as enforcement is maintained.

Yours are all just theories, mine is an implemented program that worked in the real world

P.S.  No green ink was wasted in this post 

[Jud_T]

Frankly this is such an endemic problem that anything they're doing to address it is great in my opinion and a huge step forward.  I think publishing the list would be fantastic.  Hell, I'd pay to see it.  How about an NBA style shot clock held by one of the markers in each group? 

[Bill Seitz]

If a group takes more than 3:40 and is more than 10 minutes behind the group in front, first offense, a fine.
Second offense, fine and two stroke penalty.
Third offense, fine and 4 shot penalty
Fourth offense, fine and one tournament suspension.

This proposal is better than most, but it still has two things I don't care for.  First, I don't like penalizing a player for something that his fellow opponent did/was doing.  In tournament golf, it's not my job to police my opponents with regard to slow play.  It's one thing if I'm in a regular Sunday foursome at the club or at a muni, but the tournament golfer's obligation is to himself with regard to the rules.  I think players DO have an obligation to their opponents in terms of pace of play, but I shouldn't have to tell you to speed up, and I shouldn't get penalized for your slow play.

Second, while I agree that you have to draw the line somewhere, I don't care for the arbitrariness of the 10 minute rule.  Let's say we're behind a slow group all day, so we're not going to finish in 3:40, but we've been right on top of the guys in front of us all day.  On 18, maybe I hit one OB and need to walk back to the tee.  Maybe I hit another one or two in the water.  That hole is going to take a while, and we have no holes left to make up that lost time.  You get penalized a stroke as a result.  Doesn't seem fair to me.  Instead of laying the 10 minute rule on 18, do something like "finish within 10 minutes of the group ahead on 15 of 18 holes", which would allow some leeway for unexpected events. 

Still, the first part for me remains the killer.  You don't get penalized if I hit a shot out of bounds.  You don't get penalized if I ground my club in a hazard.  Why should you should you get penalized because I played too slowly?  PGA Tour golf is not a team sport. 

[Carl Nichols]

The rule at my club is all rounds must be completed in 4 hours, unless you tee off before 8am on the weekends, when rounds must be completed in either 3:40 or 3:50, depending on how early you go.  (You can finish over the allotted time only if the group ahead is slow and you finish within 10 minutes of that group.) 

We police this exactly the way Pat is suggesting -- the starter notes when groups tee off, and we have someone on 18 recording when groups finish, so you know how long each group takes to play.  Most weekends the entire tee sheet gets posted in the locker room; at a minimum, the sheet gets posted when a group violates the rule.  Letters also get sent to offenders. 

The peer pressure is quite strong -- just about everyone wants to avoid having his/her name next to a bad time.  The only downside I've seen is that some people seem to feel that it's completely acceptable to play in 3:59 on a Wednesday afternoon when the course is wide open, since they're complying with a pace-of-play rule that's faster than most places around (and certainly than the tour).   

[Rick Shefchik]

Wouldn't the "finish within 10 minutes" rule work if modified to "tee off 18 before the group ahead leaves the green"?

[Carl Nichols]

Wouldn't the "finish within 10 minutes" rule work if modified to "tee off 18 before the group ahead leaves the green"?

Those will obviously yield similar results, though I don't know why you wouldn't want to focus on the total time, which is both cleaner/quantifiable and which accounts for groups that play 18 really slowly.  Also, at my course, the person sitting next to the 18th green isn't able to see the 18th tee box, so you'd have to figure out a way to know when the group behind has teed off on 18. 

[Mark Smolens]

The penalty needs to be shots, not fines.

I included shot penalties

I would put every player on a shot clock. I'd start with 18 seconds, and eventually reduce it down to 10 seconds. 

Dan,

Who would time the 150 or so players ?

Mr. Mucci, I caddied at a local U.S. Open qualifier a couple of weeks ago. The CDGA had at least one rules official/observer on every hole. These were strictly volunteers. I see no reason why the PGA Tour could not come up with volunteers to run a shot clock on every hole. They already have folks out there doing calculations for shot link. You'd need one on the tee, one in the fairway, and one on the green -- or you could have one person walking along with each group -- perhaps next to the standard bearer.

At a place like Cog Hill, they have those big electronic scoreboards throughout the course. They could be configured to serve as shot clocks as well. Until a threesome of really good players is able to finish 18 holes in less than 4 + hours on a regular basis, something needs to be done.

There's not enough staff.

Your method is impractical and can't be administrated

I would not give them any excuses. You want to take longer, fine, you will just have a shot added to your score.

I don't know about the rest of you, but watching golfers thinking about hitting a shot is bad TV.

[Matthew Essig]

According to the rule book, the playing partner is supposed to tell the slow player to speed up. But what are you supposed to do?? Yell, "Hey, Hurry Up." That is not very nice etiquette.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wouldn't the "finish within 10 minutes" rule work if modified to "tee off 18 before the group ahead leaves the green"?

No,

What if # 18 is a par 3 like Congressional used to be ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

According to the rule book, the playing partner is supposed to tell the slow player to speed up. But what are you supposed to do?? Yell, "Hey, Hurry Up." That is not very nice etiquette.

So, it's OK etiquette to play slow ?

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