[Mark Johnson]

Interesting debate I got into today, initially about BPB with very diverse views on both the architecture as well as difficulty.  One thing we realized that the different between the back (7100) and middle (6500) tees is as great as almost any course out there for a decent golfer.    Playing middles allows you to take a ton of hazards out of play (e.g. interact less with the architecture).   My thought has always been that a great course should be almost as challenging  from the middle set of tees for a decent player.

This got us thinking.  What other courses is there such a dramatic difference between tee boxes.   For instance,  Butle and Medinah a b&tch no matter what tee boxes you play from.   Merion is so strategic that you are probably hitting close to the same club no matter the tee box.

Here was our initial list of course that are radically different between middle and back tees, but there are probably tons we are forgetting

- BPB
- Prince Course
- Blackwolf Run River Course
- Rich Harvest
- Vahalla

[Tim Martin]

Yale
Back-6749
Middle-6122

[Jim_Kennedy]

You might find some Nicklaus courses with huge swings. He once said that when he was building a course that expected to have tournaments he'd build fewer tees, with the tips at 7,500 and the member's tees at 6,500 yards. The thought was that members (the men) usually gravitate toward the next shortest tee from the tips and if he used multiple tee boxes that would mean one of about 7,200, and in his opinion that would still be too long for them.

Sounds logical.  

[Tom_Doak]

I always felt that Robert Trent Jones, Sr., was very good at building courses where the difference between the back tee and the middle tee was significant -- even they were combined on one long tee.  The Cornell course was good in that way -- from the middle tees a good player could get past a lot of the tee shot trouble, but from the back you had to be honest about your limitations.

[David_Madison]

The Concession, a Nicklaus design in Sarasota, Fl is almost 7500 yards from the back tees. When I played it a few years ago the next set of tees was perhaps 6500 yards. From the back there are some carries that were brutal, and the course overall was very difficult. Possibly the first course that Jack Nicklaus designed that was too long for him (from the back)when he was out there for the course opening.  But from 6600, the course felt a tad too easy, especially for a low handicap player. According to their web site, there's now a set of tees just under 7000 yards, but I don't remember those, as I would have played it from there had they been available.

[Mark Saltzman]

This may not be the answer you were looking for, but I think most golf courses provide very different experiences between tees. 

I am most impressed when an architect is able to provide varied experiences between tees by using different teeing angles, rather than just different yardages.

For example, at Sand Creek Station's 1st hole Jeff Brauer was able to provide for two very different looking tee shots even though the hole plays roughly the same length from each tee.


From the back tee the tee shot requires an angle carry over a water hazard...




Whereas from the middle tee the hole plays straightaway with the hazard running down the right...

[Patrick_Mucci]

ANGC

[Sean Leary]

The Old Course.

[Pete_Pittock]

Sagebrush, I can reach the speed slots and hills with my drives off the whites.

[David_Elvins]

Barnbougle Dunes is very different from the Back tees (6800 odd yards) to the second back tees (6100 approx) and I think it is to the courses detriment.

A lot of the yardage comes off the long two shotters:

The 9th goes from 440 to 385.
The 10th goes from 450 to 405
The 17th goes from 440 to 360
The 18th goes from 440 to 400

Given that the course has two driveable par 4s and 2 drive and pitch par 4s, playing from the regular tees (as is recommended for anyone with a handicap greater than 4) can make the course into a drive and pitch course in good conditions, which is a let down for what is one of the world's best courses. 

[Sean_A]

Adding/subtracting yardage doesn't impress me - thats just a math game.  What I like to see in different tees is different angles - this is when all players gain variety.  Burnham does as good job of this as any course I know. 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

The angles of attack for the different sets of tees should soften as you move forward.

[Brian Hilko]

Lost dunes. 6, 8, and 12 come to mind.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

The angles of attack for the different sets of tees should soften as you move forward.

Pat

I disagree.  I would rather tees focus on angles rather than length.  Its fine to stick some longer tees in here and there, but the main goal of tees should be to provide alternate angles and because length isn't the primary goal, then most of the tees can happily be used by most of the membership.  Thus creating a much more varied course from the tee. 

Ciao 

[A.G._Crockett]

True Blue by Mike Strantz at Pawley's Island, SC.
 
Unusual in that the back tees are 7126, the second set only drops to 6812, but then the third set drops all the way to 6375.  The slope from the back is 145, then only drops to 141.  The thiird set slope is 127.  The course is really too difficult even for low handicappers from the back two tees because the bermuda greens simply won't hold approaches from the distances required.

Many golfers mistakenly try to play the second set of tees because that's just what they are used to doing, then are miserable.  Great, great strategic golf course from the third set; hard as Chinese Algebra from the back two sets of tees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

The angles of attack for the different sets of tees should soften as you move forward.

Pat

I disagree.  I would rather tees focus on angles rather than length.  Its fine to stick some longer tees in here and there, but the main goal of tees should be to provide alternate angles and because length isn't the primary goal, then most of the tees can happily be used by most of the membership.  Thus creating a much more varied course from the tee. 

So, on a difficult par 3 you would have the weak golfer play from the same difficult angle as an accomplished player ?

I suspect that you don't understand that you can't expect the weaker player to be faced with the same challenge as the accomplished player, save for differences in yardage.

Your theory also requires an unlimited maintenance budget as well

Ciao 

[Phil McDade]

Erin Hills qualifies, I think. Many of the back tees are set at angles to the fairways, and often require significant carries over rough terrain, while the shorter tees are positioned in a way that the carries are less formidable, and aren't as angled.

It plays at 7,800 yds. (approx.) from the back championship tees, ~ 7,200 yds. from the regular tournament tees, and three other sets @ 6,700 yds., 6,400 yds., and 5,100 yds.

Two threads (the first is mine from a couple of years ago; the second is Joe Bausch's tour of Wisconsin courses that has some very good pictures of tee angles at EH, along with hole depictions that show different tee areas):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45966.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48480.0.html

[Sean_A]

Sean,

The angles of attack for the different sets of tees should soften as you move forward.

Pat

I disagree.  I would rather tees focus on angles rather than length.  Its fine to stick some longer tees in here and there, but the main goal of tees should be to provide alternate angles and because length isn't the primary goal, then most of the tees can happily be used by most of the membership.  Thus creating a much more varied course from the tee.  

So, on a difficult par 3 you would have the weak golfer play from the same difficult angle as an accomplished player ?

I suspect that you don't understand that you can't expect the weaker player to be faced with the same challenge as the accomplished player, save for differences in yardage.

Your theory also requires an unlimited maintenance budget as well

Ciao  

Pat

I couldn't say how the holes would be specifically for an imaginary course - tee hee.  What I can say is I see nothing wrong with offering different angles through the week if there is sufficient width to provide it.  Some days the angle of tee shots is harder than others - that is the nature of diversity and I am positive nearly all golfers would welcome diversity.  

Unlimited budget?  I am not proposing any higher costs than providing tees based on yardage - instead I would rather angles be the main thrust of tees.  I can't think of many cheaper ways to make a course more interesting week in and week out.
Below is an interesting example of what I mean.

Burnham's 8th from the left tee


From the right tee


The yardages are almost identical, but the hole plays entirely differently as I am sure you can appreciate.

Ciao

 

[Mark Johnson]

I always felt that Robert Trent Jones, Sr., was very good at building courses where the difference between the back tee and the middle tee was significant -- even they were combined on one long tee.  The Cornell course was good in that way -- from the middle tees a good player could get past a lot of the tee shot trouble, but from the back you had to be honest about your limitations.

Tom, 

When you design a course, are you focused on providing a similar challenge to both tees or are you ok if a good player from the middle tees can take many of the hazards of out play.

For instance on 13 at Pac Dunes, you have a very different angle from the tips vs. middle tees (and middle tees have more bailout room).   Was this intentiionally to make it easier this the average golfer instead of just keeping the middles on the same line

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The next time I play BPB it will be from the Red tees @ 6200y...after I play the 1st from the White tees, of course.

[Jud_T]

Dunes Club!

[Lester George]

Ballyhack Golf Club

Lester

[A.G._Crockett]

Another example here in GA is Kinderlou Forest by DLIII, which hosts a Nationwide event each year.  Plays almost 7800 from the tips, then drops to 7200 and 6600.  

I tried the 7800 yd. tees one afternoon playing by myself on an empty course.  I lasted 4 holes before I moved up; couldn't reach the fairway in some cases, couldn't reach the dogleg in others, and had NO business back there.  But it gave me a graphic understanding of the difference in what I do vs. what professional golfers are doing.

[Kalen Braley]

The Idaho Club is bad for this too. 

The back tees are like 6700 and the next tees are 5900.  So they have a composite tee setup thats about 6200.

[Adam Clayman]

Generally, the courses with an over abundance of elevated back tees, where others, are at grade.

Personally, I'm sick of the elevated tee shot. I prefer it when features like fairway bunkers, loom larger because the golfer is not significantly higher. The list is too long, but a great example would be at Highland Links in Nova Scotia. Is it 14, where you have the glorious long walk along the river? Well, there's a tee, just at the end of the tunnel, at grade, along the river. From there, the entire right hill side makes a spectacular look. The "normal" tee was I was there, was up on top of that ridge, that creates the right side hillside. A completely different look, angle, and, opportunity to create a memorable shot.

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