[Ted Sturges]

In my previous thread on the Evolution of Pete Dye, someone asked me to list what I consider to be the 10 best Pete Dye courses.  The exercise of making that list got me thinking.  It seemed to me that I was laboring to come up with 10 "great" courses for Mr. Dye (and one could argue that getting 10 out of 46 years of work for a talented architect should be pretty easy).

Subsequently, I made a list of what I consider to be the 10 best Tom Doak courses.  That list is below:

1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Cape Kidnappers
3.  Barnbougle Dunes
4.  St. Andrews Beach
5.  Old MacDonald
6.  Ballyneal
7.  Rock Creek
8.  Lost Dunes
9.  Stonewall
10.  Sebonack


To review, here was my list for Mr. Dye:

1.  Ocean Course at Kiawah
2.  The Golf Club
3.  Casa De Campo
4.  Harbour Town
5.  Long Cove
6.  Honors Course
7.  Pete Dye Golf Club
8.  TPC Sawgrass
9.  Whistling Straits
10.  The Fort


I realize this is subjective, as these are my lists and others might construct completely different lists for each man.  Having said that, let's take this a step further.  If those 10 courses are paired against the corresponding course on the other man's list, an interesting exercise would be to have a match (Doak's ten courses in order, versus Dye's courses in order).

Here are the results of my assessment of this match.

1.  Pacific Dunes beats the Ocean Course   (Doak)
2.  Cape Kidnappers beats The Golf Club   (Doak)
3.  Barnbougle Dunes beats Casa De Campo  (Doak)
4.  St. Andrews Beach beats Harbour Town  (Doak)
5.  Old MacDonald beats Long Cove  (Doak)
6.  Ballyneal beats Honors  (Doak)
7.  Rock Creek beats Pete Dye Golf Club   (Doak)
8.  TPC Sawgrass beats Lost Dunes  (Dye)
9.  Whistling Straits beats Stonewall  (Dye)
10.  Sebonack beats The Fort  (Doak)

Doak 8, Dye 2

In exactly half the total career years (Doak 23 years vs. Dye's 46 years), my opinion on the above list has Doak easily beating Dye in an assessment of their best courses.  What does this mean?  Has Tom Doak had better land to work with?  Is he a more talented practitioner that Pete Dye?  Am I wrong?  Would others take the 10 vs. 10 lists above and conclude a different score?  Would others construct different lists for each man's ten best courses?

I'd really like to see other's lists and scoring....and opinions on this topic.

TS

[Carl Nichols]

If you created a top 10 of only Dye and Doak courses, what would it look like?  Put differently, while The Ocean Course might lose to Pac Dunes, does it also lose to Ballyneal (or even Sebonack), in your view? 

[Nigel Islam]

Not that it changes the premise of your post, but I would put Crooked Stick in the top ten over The Fort.

[Ted Sturges]

Nigel,

I realize that much of this is subjective.  I live in Indy and play both CS and The Fort regularly.  I have The Fort ahead of CS.  It is on a far superior piece of property (CS was built in a corn field), has more interesting par 5's, and is more fun to play.  In my opinion, the only thing CS has on The Fort is a much higher maintenance budget.

Carl,

I'll give your question some thought and post later.

TS

[PCCraig]

I live in Indy and play both CS and The Fort regularly.  I have The Fort ahead of CS.  It is on a far superior piece of property (CS was built in a corn field), has more interesting par 5's, and is more fun to play.  In my opinion, the only thing CS has on The Fort is a much higher maintenance budget.

Ted,

Interesting comment. I can't say I agree, however.

[Ted Sturges]

To PCraig,

You can't agree that The Fort is on a better piece of property???

TS

[Jud_T]

Ted,

While I'm a huge fan of Tom's work, the head-to-head matchup may not be as good a methodology as simply ranking the courses 1-20.  For instance, imagine your Doak top 10 against a MacKenzie top 10 head-to-head...

[Billsteele]

Ted-Interesting comments re Crooked Stick. I have always thought that the back nine at Crooked Stick is excellent. However, the front nine seems a bit squeezed and uninspiring (#1 in particular is a very bland opener).

The Fort is on a better piece of property with much more movement. However, while I liked it, I remember very little of the golf course other than I thought it had another mediocre first hole. I would be interested to hear you expand on why you prefer the Fort over Crooked Stick.

[PCCraig]

To PCraig,

You can't agree that The Fort is on a better piece of property???

TS

Yeah, the Fort is on some nice property. But I don't agree that it's a better golf course than Crooked Stick. I'd love to hear your reasoning.

[Jonathan Stewart]

I agree with Carl and Jud that this may work better if the list was a combined Top 10 (or 20) and as opposed to ranking each architect’s best designs then comparing by rank.

Also, does this discussion work in Tom’s favor because he is part of the current style of GCA that has become loved throughout the golf world? Obviously each architect was influential from early on in their career. If you have this same discussion 20-30 years ago would Mr. Dye win a match play battle of ranked courses against Robert Trent Jones or Dick Wilson?

-Jon

[Nigel Islam]

Ted, I was just stating my opinion not criticizing your ranking. I DO agree however The Fort is a far superior property. Its been several years since I have played either. How do you feel Brickyard fits in with The Fort and CS?

[Matthew Petersen]

I realize this is subjective, as these are my lists and others might construct completely different lists for each man.  Having said that, let's take this a step further.  If those 10 courses are paired against the corresponding course on the other man's list, an interesting exercise would be to have a match (Doak's ten courses in order, versus Dye's courses in order).

...

In exactly half the total career years (Doak 23 years vs. Dye's 46 years), my opinion on the above list has Doak easily beating Dye in an assessment of their best courses.  What does this mean?  Has Tom Doak had better land to work with?  Is he a more talented practitioner that Pete Dye?  Am I wrong?  Would others take the 10 vs. 10 lists above and conclude a different score?  Would others construct different lists for each man's ten best courses?

I'd really like to see other's lists and scoring....and opinions on this topic.

TS

Ted,

You say you realize that this is subjective, but then jump right into whether it means that Tom Doak is a better practitioner than Pete Dye. And he may well be, I don't have the experience to fully make the comparison. But it seems to me that when you ask what does this mean you're overlooking the simplest, best answer. You prefer Doak's work to Dye's.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ted, after looking at your respective lists my first thought was not about the architects but their clients.

[Michael George]

Ted,

While I'm a huge fan of Tom's work, the head-to-head matchup may not be as good a methodology as simply ranking the courses 1-20.  For instance, imagine your Doak top 10 against a MacKenzie top 10 head-to-head...

Jud - well said.  You could also add Morris, Braid, Colt, Coore/Crenshaw, Ross.    

I think Tom Doak is one of the best architects of today.   Isn't it enough to just say that rather than try and de-value other architects?  The Fazio and Nicklaus bashing on this site is enough to bare.  Let's not start wtih Dye bashing too.  Pretty soon you won't be able to say anything nice about anybody but Doak and C&C.

[John Shimp]

Are any of Tom's courses as impactful to golf overall as any of TPC Sawgrass, Ocean, or Harbor Town?  You can't take away the competitions that have been held at those places and where they are located for significant visibility to the golfing public. I realize this is a different question than what you posed but I havent' played enough of Doak's courses to answer and thought I'd pose this question also.

Personally I'd say Pac Dunes is a really important course at a really important place in Bandon.  Tom's list is impressive but made up of some great property in extremely remote places.

[Tom_Doak]

Ted:

I would never keep score against other architects.  I only keep score for how we did with the pieces of property we've been given.  We're doing pretty well on that count.  [Also, just as a reminder, my personal top ten list is still subject to change.]


John Shimp:

I have never believed that the only important courses are tournament courses -- in fact, the example of tournament courses have generally been a bad thing as far as how they've impacted golf course architecture over the years, as there is too much of a focus on difficulty.  I've tried to show how unnecessary that is, with limited success.

I would agree with you that we haven't built a lot of "important" courses -- though judging from the pictures I see of others' work, Pacific Dunes has had an impact on what others are building now.  Probably the biggest impact my recent work has had is that more architects are becoming more involved in shaping the courses they build, as Bill Coore and I both learned to do from Mr. Dye.

I think the Olympic bid process showed that the PGA Tour is not interested in having me design tournament courses, so I may never have a chance to do an "important" course by your own silly definition.  I'd have loved to show all the naysayers what I could have done, but for me personally, tournament golf is not really what golf is about.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Your last post reminded me a bit of Steven Spielberg and the criticism he got early in his career.  Despite doing whimiscal fun movies that made a crap load of money,  like Raiders of the Last Ark, ET, and Close Encounters of the Third Kind...he was getting little to no respect from the "real" critics who said he couldn't do a real movie with a serious topic.

So he went all gangsta on them and did Schindler's List followed by Saving Private Ryan which shut them all up for good.

[George Freeman]

Tom,

Your last post reminded me a bit of Steven Spielberg and the criticism he got early in his career.  Despite doing whimiscal fun movies that made a crap load of money,  like Raiders of the Last Ark, ET, and Close Encounters of the Third Kind...he was getting little to no respect from the "real" critics who said he couldn't do a real movie with a serious topic.

So he went all gangsta on them and did Schindler's List followed by Saving Private Ryan which shut them all up for good.

Kalen - are you implying that Tom will someday build the tournament course to beat all other tournament courses? 

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Your last post reminded me a bit of Steven Spielberg and the criticism he got early in his career.  Despite doing whimiscal fun movies that made a crap load of money,  like Raiders of the Last Ark, ET, and Close Encounters of the Third Kind...he was getting little to no respect from the "real" critics who said he couldn't do a real movie with a serious topic.

So he went all gangsta on them and did Schindler's List followed by Saving Private Ryan which shut them all up for good.

Kalen - are you implying that Tom will someday build the tournament course to beat all other tournament courses? 

I'm just saying, I don't doubt for a second that Tom D could build a very good "tournament" course that would stand up to the best of the rest of em.

[John Shimp]

Tom,
 I realize its not about tournament golf but it helps in terms of expsosure and Pete Dye has gotten a lot of those assignments and has tended to create some interesting courses for the pros that certainly don't suit the everyday player.  I was just trying to point that out and the fact that he has a lot of product in well worn areas like the SC coast, etc.  I agree important is a bad definition.  I couldn't come up witht the right phrase for courses that are prominent due to lots of exhibition and notoriety.

As an aside, I thought Old MacDonald made for fantastic tournament golf last summer in the Publinks and was plenty hard for the players.   

I would have loved to have seen what you would have done at the Olympic venue. 

[Ted Sturges]

To Tom Doak-

I know you would not score yourself versus another architect.  I just thought is was an interesting exercise, and the end result of it is that I am convinced that you have created a deeper list of high quality courses than your mentor....in roughly half the years in business. 

Just curious, what is your own personal top ten of your courses as of today?  (curious to know how it compares to my list).

Also, as you know, I played at Quail Crossing on Wednesday.  You really need to get back there.  The course looked great, and was presented firm and fast (the turf was terrific!).  Craig and Mamie asked me if I thought their mowing patterns had gotten the fairways too wide (they are never wide enough for me the way I drive it!).  You might think an adjustment to their mowing patterns might be in order....but it is a VERY fun place to play golf, that's for sure.  BTW, Griffin Wood (7 years old when you built the course) has the course record...64!

TS

[ward peyronnin]

Tom the back side at Quail has aged particularly well and Craig and Mamie
have let the heather grow up and into some of the bunkers...greens platforms are still fun too

[Joel Zuckerman]

Posted by: John Shimp 
Insert Quote
Are any of Tom's courses as impactful to golf overall as any of TPC Sawgrass, Ocean, or Harbor Town?  You can't take away the competitions that have been held at those places and where they are located for significant visibility to the golfing public.


   Yet another reason for Pete Dye’s architectural preeminence is the fact that his golf courses have so often served or will eventually be serving as the site of major competitions.  Bear in mind that in addition to the extensive list below, The Players Championship, considered one of professional golf’s most prestigious titles, has been contested at the Dye –designed Stadium Course at TPC Sawgrass every spring since 1982.  Furthermore, The Heritage, one of the preeminent Invitational tournaments on the PGA Tour, has been contested at Harbour Town Golf Links annually since 1969.

•   1974—US Senior Amateur—Harbour Town---South Carolina
•   1974—Men’s World Amateur Team Championship---Teeth of the Dog---Dominican Republic
•   1974—Women’s World Amateur Team Championship—Teeth of the Dog—Dominican Republic
•   1983---US Senior Amateur---Crooked Stick---Indiana
•   1984—US Amateur—Oak Tree GC--Oklahoma
•   1988---PGA Championship---Oak Tree GC---Oklahoma
•   1989---US Mid-Amateur---Crooked Stick---Indiana
•   1989---NCAA Championships—Oak Tree GC--Oklahoma
•   1991—PGA Championship—Crooked Stick GC—Indiana
•   1991---Ryder Cup Matches---Ocean Course—South Carolina
•   1991---US Amateur---Honors Course---Tennessee
•   1991---US Mid-Amateur---Long Cove---South Carolina
•   1992---US Women’s Mid-Amateur---Old Marsh---Florida
•   1993---US Women’s Open---Crooked Stick---Indiana
•   1994---US Amateur----TPC Sawgrass---Stadium---Florida
•   1994----Curtis Cup Matches---Honors Course—Tennessee
•   1996—NCAA Golf Championship---Honors Course—Tennessee
•   1996—US Women’s Amateur ---Firethorn---Nebraska
•   1997—US Amateur Public Links—Kearney Hill—Kentucky
•   1997---World Cup---Ocean Course—South Carolina
•   1998---US Women’s Open---Blackwolf Run---Wisconsin
•   1999---US Senior Open—Des Moines CC---Iowa
•   2003---US Women’s Mid-Amateur---Long Cove—South Carolina
•   2003—World Cup—Ocean Course—South Carolina
•   2004—PGA Championship---Whistling Straits---Wisconsin
•   2005—US Mid-Amateur --Honors Course---Tennessee
•   2005—LPGA Championship---Bulle Rock---Maryland
•   2005—Solheim Cup—Crooked Stick---Indiana
•   2006—LPGA Championship---Bulle Rock---Maryland
•   2006—Senior PGA Championship---Oak Tree GC---Oklahoma
•   2007---Senior PGA Championship---Ocean Course---South Carolina
•   2007---LPGA Championship—Bulle Rock--Maryland
•   2007---US Senior Open—Whistling Straits---Wisconsin
•   2007--US Women’s Amateur Public Links---Kearney Hill---Kentucky
•   2007---US Women’s Amateur —Crooked Stick---Indiana
•   2008—NCAA Golf Championship—Kampen Course---Indiana
•   2008---LPGA Championship---Bulle Rock---Maryland
•   2009—US Mid-Amateur—Ocean Course—South Carolina
•   2009---US Senior Open---Crooked Stick---Indiana
•   2009----LPGA Championship---Bulle Rock---Maryland
•   2010---NCAA Golf Championship—Honors Course--Tennessee
•   2010—PGA Championship—Whistling Straits—Wisconsin
•   2012—US Women’s Open—Blackwolf Run---Wisconsin
•   2012—PGA Championship---Ocean Course---South Carolina
•   2015---PGA Championship—Whistling Straits—Wisconsin
•   2020—Ryder Cup Matches---Whistling Straits---Wisconsin

[Andy Troeger]

In exactly half the total career years (Doak 23 years vs. Dye's 46 years), my opinion on the above list has Doak easily beating Dye in an assessment of their best courses.  What does this mean?  Has Tom Doak had better land to work with?  Is he a more talented practitioner that Pete Dye?  Am I wrong?  Would others take the 10 vs. 10 lists above and conclude a different score?  Would others construct different lists for each man's ten best courses?

I'd really like to see other's lists and scoring....and opinions on this topic.

TS

Ted,
In truth I don't think your assessment means much more than that you prefer Doak's best courses over Dye's. I think there's enough variability in the exercise that reasonable minds can disagree. Both are well represented on the various magazine lists and I think both have built a number of great courses. I've played 23 Dye courses to only 7 from Doak, so I can't really do an exercise in the same style. I think I've played 8 Dye courses that I think are top 100 USA level courses, and 4 Doak courses at that level. My two favorite Doak courses, Rock Creek and Pacific Dunes, rank #7/9 on my personal list, and my top two Dye's, Pete Dye GC and The Golf Club, are #8/11. I would have a hard time prefering one over the other, although I think highly of the works of both men.

[ward peyronnin]

Joel

Is that info from your comprehensive book on Pete Dye

You guys are right . I simply enjoy playing and find more pleasurable exitement on the doak courses I have played  than the dye .
Perhaps the French luck course has simply left a sour taste

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