Very Busy Golf Courses . . .

[DMoriarty]

Recently I came across the following A.P. articles from February 1941:

   

248,000 rounds.  An average of 124,000 rounds per 18 hole golf course.  Sounds like a lot to me.    I believe the number because, while I don't have the stats handy, I have seen more recent numbers from Southern California that at least approach these.

But I am curious about the number of rounds in different areas of the country, and also what that means in terms of the details (spacing of tee times, foursomes or fivesomes, length of season, bad weather days, wear and tear on the course, maintenance practices, etc.)

Have these numbers changed over the years as pace of play and length of courses has changed?

Thanks.  

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I cannot say about anything before the 1980's.  However I suspect those Griffith Park rounds could have very well included the 9 hole Roosevelt course, a gem by the way, which relocated so they could build the L.A. Zoo.  In the 1940's one starter had two 18 hole courses and one 9 hole course going at all times.  I am guessing it reclocated about the late 1960's.
In the 1960's I played Griffith Park and would go over and get the twlight rate at 4 PM in August.  I usually got in about 14 holes, so play was slow then.  Carts have slowed play down, but remember the population in Los Angeles in the 1940's wasn't as great as the 1980's.

Didn't you discover that Brookside in Pasadena played 80,000 rounds in their first or second year of operation in the late 1920's?

If Cobb's Creek did 60,000 rounds of play, that is one busy golf course.  The New York munis might surpass that, but the parking lots were crowded on Fridays nights at 3 AM and ready to go at first light.

Rancho used to record round totals in the 120,000's.  I suspect Griffith Park did about 100,000 each on the 18 hole courses in the
80's.  The world has changed in golf.  Rancho Park is now below 100,000 rounds.  I believe L.A. County has just two courses that still record 100,000 rounds, La Mirada and Chester Washington.  They play a lot of early moring fivesomes.

The highest I have ever heard of east of the Mississippi, is Fulton Park in Atlanta in the 1980's did in the 80,000 range.  It is possible that some of the N.Y. munis exceeded that, but it would not have been by much.

[Alex Miller]

Los Verdes had more play per 18 hole course than Rancho and both Griffith Park courses 10 years ago. I don't know of the exact figures for rounds/year today, but I'd imagine it's still up there with La Mirada and the other 100,000+ courses.

I think Los Angeles has one of the lowest golf course : population ratios in the country, hence some of the numbers.

[Matt Day]

we do an average of 165,000 rounds on two courses. One course does 100,000 of those as an average.

In the ten years I've been here the best is 178,000, the best on record is 210,000.

I have a public course ten minutes away that does high 90's every year, and there are three other public courses in Perth that would do over 80,000 rounds a year

disclaimer- this includes 9 hole rounds

[TEPaul]

D. Moriarty:

I thought we mathematically and actually explained to you on one of those Cobbs Creek threads that it is virtually impossible to get that amount of rounds (248,000), or actually only half that amount on a eighteen hole golf course anually no matter where it is.

Is there something or anything you did not understand about what we said?

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Lynn.

- It could be the A.P. articles meant all three Griffith courses, but they do specify two courses or 36 holes.  Plus, I've seen another article from 1946 indicating that over 300,000 rounds were played on the two full courses plus the nine hole, so 248,000 may well just be for the two. Either way, the starter must have been a pretty busy guy.    

- As for Brookside, I was trying to remember what number I found. I was thinking it was really high, like over 100,000 thousand, but I really can't remember.  You are a lot younger than me when it comes to most things, so if you think 80,000 is the number then that is probably closer to correct.  I'll have to dig that old Brookside stuff up, but fittingly right now I can't remember where it is.  

-I don't know about the New York City muni's, but I read on a few different websites that all five of the Bethpage Courses together do around 300,000 rounds per year, with the Black clocking in at around 35,000-40,000.   If memory serves only a few of the courses (Yellow and Blue?) are open year 'round and weather permitting so I 300K for the five courses is pretty busy.

-You sent me a great breakdown once of the LA county courses from probably around five or six years ago. What are the chances I can find that?
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Matt Day,

Thanks very much for the info.  Out of curiosity, do you happen to know the tee time spacing and the the approximate pace of play?  
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Shivas, I've seen some big numbers for early Chicago area publics as well, but don't recall just how big.  
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Alex,  I was supposed to play Los Verdes tomorrow, but we had to cancel.  That is one of places which allows fivesomes is it not? That can make for a lot of long rounds.  
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TEPaul, I am afraid I don't understand your post. If you you really think it is mathematically and actually impossible to get 124,000 golfers over a single 18 hole course in a year, my guess you never had the pleasure of playing Rancho Park in West Los Angeles back in its heyday.  As Lynn points out above, "Rancho used to record round totals in the 120,000's."

All I recall you explaining was that in your opinion you could thought you get 550-600 golfers out on a course if they played foursomes (two players per ball) but as this was irrelevant I ignored it and moved on.  Same as I'll do here.
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According to the Guinness Book of World Records (at least as reported in a Frommer's review) Ali Wai Municipal in near Waikiki Beach is the busiest course in the World. I've seen all sorts of crazy numbers for their number of rounds; 500 a day, 400-500 a day, 133,000/year, 146,000/year, 170,000+/year.  I have no idea how many.

[Matt Day]

7 minute spacings on weekdays, 8 minutes on weekends. We generally get 18 holes in 4.00-4.30 on weekdays, 4.30 to 5.00 on weekends. Courses are 5,600 metres and 5,800 metres long, and we take all comers.

In summer the first tee time is 5.30 am

[DMoriarty]

7 minute spacings on weekdays, 8 minutes on weekends. We generally get 18 holes in 4.00-4.30 on weekdays, 4.30 to 5.00 on weekends. Courses are 5,600 metres and 5,800 metres long, and we take all comers.

In summer the first tee time is 5.30 am

Thanks Matt.

[Joe_Tucholski]

An interesting document on the LA courses essentially discussing the effects of the economic slowdown can be found here:
www.laparks.org/commissionerhtm/pdf2011/mar23/info.pdf

Page 16 or exhibit 1 is applicable to the topic of this thread and shows total rounds for the LA city courses for FY 08, 09 and 10.  The document also has rounds for half of FY11.

My favorite quote in the document is the description of Rancho Park as "a premium golf course which is in good condition, located in a very strong golf market, and has limited direct competition."

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Joe.  That is quite a quote.  Maybe they don't realize most people have cars and can drive a bit to play. Actually, the last time I played it was in good shape for Rancho.

On page 14 the report indicates the Rancho averaged 117,700 rounds per year from 1998-2003. For the same period the two Griffith Park Courses averaged 212,500, and even lowly Hansen Dam averaged over 100,000.  I suspect that, as Lynn indicated, the rounds have have been higher for earlier periods. All of the City courses are down in over 10% in the more recent period except Rancho which is only down 6.5%.  Incredibly the 12 regulation length County courses averaged over 110,000 rounds for the 98-03 period. 

[Alex Miller]

Love that on some charts for the competitive sets that Rustic is listed as a lower quality course than Angeles National and equivalent to Los Robles, Rancho, and the Griffith Park courses.

Also both Lost Canyon courses and Robinson Ranch are of higher quality (I actually like the ranch course more than most, but not more than rustic)
 

[DMoriarty]

Come on Alex, this is Los Angeles. If it costs more it must be of higher quality.

[Matt Day]

An interesting document on the LA courses essentially discussing the effects of the economic slowdown can be found here:
www.laparks.org/commissionerhtm/pdf2011/mar23/info.pdf

Page 16 or exhibit 1 is applicable to the topic of this thread and shows total rounds for the LA city courses for FY 08, 09 and 10.  The document also has rounds for half of FY11.

My favorite quote in the document is the description of Rancho Park as "a premium golf course which is in good condition, located in a very strong golf market, and has limited direct competition."

thanks for the link Joe, nearly all the issues raised in that are the same that we deal with on the other side of the world.

[Mark Pearce]

D. Moriarty:

I thought we mathematically and actually explained to you on one of those Cobbs Creek threads that it is virtually impossible to get that amount of rounds (248,000), or actually only half that amount on a eighteen hole golf course anually no matter where it is.

Is there something or anything you did not understand about what we said?

It's great to have you back.  Your input to this site has genuinely been missed.  What hasn't been missed is the absurd, endless sniping between you, Moriarty and MacWood.  If you must pick Moriarty up on things (and we'd all be better off if you both just concentrated on positive contribution, rather than bickering), then please at least read what he has posted before responding.  It is absolutely clear from his first post that the 248,000 figure refers to at least two courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I don't know the historical stats for Dyker Beach, van Cortland and Bethpage, but I recall reports of dawn to dusk play.

Their rounds and the rounds of all clubs in the Northeast are limited, seriously restricted, by the seasons and weather.

I would imagine that courses in better year round climates, like Southern California, would produce significantly, if not exponentially, larger numbers.

124,000 rounds per year equals 340 rounds per day or 85 foursomes per day, based on 365 days of play.

At 10 foursomes per hour, that would take 8.5 hours, or from 7:00 am to 3:30 pm.

It would appear that the math works in areas enjoying great climate.

I wouldn't consider Detroit as a city that enjoys good year round climate.
In addition, limited daylight in the winter would also restrict play.

Jan 1, 1941 to Jan 8, 1941 reveals lows of 12 and highs of 28.
Not exactly reasonable golf weather.
I know TEPaul claims that I'm not a qualified researcher/historian, but I think you'll find my response far more researched and historically correct than his response. 

I don't buy the 124,000 number in Detroit.

I do accept the 124,000 number in SOCAL

[Adam Clayman]

Then there's the dynamic that people were much more considerate in those days. Also, the card and pencil crowd, were only glimmers in their father's eyes.

Both these factors make it easily believable that the numbers work, in Socal.

Heck, PG did 116k rounds back when Rancho was doing 136k. Mid-90's.

[Jeff_Mingay]

As a side note, I'm pretty sure that Stanley Thompson was a featured speaker at this greenkeepers' conference at Detroit, in 1941 - pretty cool.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

I recall that the Las Vegas muni used to play over 100K rounds, based on full occupancy and numbers similar to Patrick's.  I think they averaged 325 players a day for at least 362 days a year.  I recall them doing that math for me, and saying that they actually managed to exceed the theoretical mathmatical limit of 300 players per day, but didn't really know how!

[Bruce Katona]

Play in earlier days was match play.....rounds took less than 4 hours.

"Rounds played" is an arbitrary term.  We use the term "18 hole equivelant rounds" to even things out.  In prior days a "round" could have meant someone paying the fee, whether it be for 9, 18 or any other number of holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bruce,

Irrespective of when matches finished, only one foursome can tee off at a time, and that's where the count is made, on the first tee.

With public courses, do gouged that those paying to lay on a daily basis abandoned the course when their match was over, or, did they play in ?

[Dan Herrmann]

Not a number - but when I was in college, I used to have to wait at from 1 to 2.5 hours any day of the week as a single to get a spot on the first tee at Brighton Park golf course in Tonawanda, NY.  This would have been around 1980, and the course was always fully packed. 

No tee times, and we typically teed off whenever the group ahead of us was safely out of range.  It was all first come, first served.

As to Patrick's question - I didn't know what match play was until I joined a club 10 years later.   And if I did, I sure would have played the entire course because I paid for a full round.

[Alex Miller]

Patrick,

The Ala Wai Golf Course consistently gets 170,000+ rounds per year, and that is with a pace of play of nearly 6 hours!

While there are not really winters in Hawaii, the days are also not as long in the summer either. Given better pace of play, good summer hours, and a packed course, it does not seem unreasonable that a course in Detroit could get ~70% of the play that the Ala Wai gets year after year.

[DMoriarty]

Detroit?

[DMoriarty]

I get it.  You guys are looking at the dateline on those two articles.  The Superintendants' Association held their 1941 annual meeting and gave the award in Detroit.  Patrick, the courses question are the two 18 hole Griffith Park courses located in Los Angeles, one designed and one redesigned by George Thomas and one redesigned by George Thomas and both built by WP Bell.  According to local press reports the courses were considered to be as good or better than anypublic courses in the nation.  But then this was said about courses all across the country and such things must be taken with a grain of salt.  

Alex,  I take those Hawaii numbers with a grain of salt.  There are all sorts of numbers for that course and I suspect the 170k+ number  is based on the claim of 500 rounds a day times 365.  I have trouble understanding how one could average 500 a day even in Hawaii. I very much doubt any course in Detroit could do 124k.

[Howard Riefs]

This is from a March 1926 Golf Illustrated article by Chick Evans (Vol 24, No. 6):

"Last year 262,000 rounds of golf were played at Jackson Park; 106,000 rounds at Lincoln Park; 81,723 rounds at Garfield Park; and 88,154 rounds at Columbus Park !

Continuing the Chicago theme...

The nine-hole Sydney R. Marovitz Golf Course (aka Waveland) that hugs Lake Michigan had 60,000 rounds/year as of this 1988 Tribune article:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-05-08/sports/8803150408_1_waveland-tees-golf