Slow Play Penalty---Thoughts?

[Mac Plumart]

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/may/20/pressel-slow-play-helps-munoz-sybase-semi/

Morgan Pressel think she goes 3 up in her match against Azahara Munoz on the 12th hole, but instead she is penalized for slow play...losses the hole and eventually the match.

Thoughts?

[Kalen Braley]

Two huge thumbs up from me.

Glad to see someone have the kieones at a big tourney to do something about this.

P.S.  After playing in a two day tourney this weekend, its just awful to have to watch so much slow play.  FFS just hit the ball/putt/chip!!

[Alex Miller]

I don't like slow play, but if you're going to start enforcing rules that just aren't being enforced most of the time, at least make an announcement or something first. I don't think Pressel has been given slow-play penalties before, in fact I'm not sure of the LPGA tour's history regarding slow play, but I don't hear about penalties being assessed ever.

I'd be pissed if I was her too, but I also think slow play rules should still exist. Just announce the change in policy first.

[Zack Molnar]

Couldn't agree more that this is an excellent thing. But they have to keep enforcing this, or players will keep up their slow ways. There will have to be several more penalties before anyone actually starts picking up the pace

[Alex Miller]

I don't like slow play, but if you're going to start enforcing rules that just aren't being enforced most of the time, at least make an announcement or something first.

Sorry Alex, I could not disagree more. Maintaining a decent pace should not be dictated by the quality (or lack thereof) of the officiating.

It's easy for us who sit here with nothing on the line to say things like this, but when rules are being enforced as judgement calls, as these have been, then the player should be informed of a shift in style.

I see no difference between and when the NBA started to enforce the hand-check rules. They made the announcement, and although there was an adjustment period (as I'm sure there would be in golf too), at least players were informed and prepared.

[RJ_Daley]

Alex, not to nit pic, but the article I read said she was over her allotted time on the par 3 by 39 seconds.  That doesn't seem like a judgement call to me.  It seems very precise.  But, I would agree if the rule was arbitrarily applied and there were other obvious violations and only the axe fell on these two with warning on 9 and axe on 12, then that would not be good.  I don't know if there were any other obvious time issues, in this tournament. They'll probably yammer it to death on TGC. 

I hope they stay on top of the time issues, no matter who, what or when it is a problem.  This only bleeds over to amateur golf and slows up our own local course play, and that seems to be a universal complaint for too many years now.

[mike_beene]

Didn't see this but heard Pressel said that her opponent did something like ground a club later in match.What happened and was the complaint legitimate?

[RJ_Daley]

This speaks to the counter complaint by Pressel. 

http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/7951895/morgan-pressel-ousted-sybase-match-play-championship-semifinals-slow-play-penalty

Apparently these ladies are good friends.  It is too bad that it may have caused a feud, if that is the result.  Pressel needs to just accept it and move on, and work on her time.  <---- period.

[Steve Lang]

  well, pressel just gave munoz a couple of big hugs and this is history..

it will do nothing to mitigate slow play

[Ken Moum]

I don't like slow play, but if you're going to start enforcing rules that just aren't being enforced most of the time, at least make an announcement or something first. I don't think Pressel has been given slow-play penalties before, in fact I'm not sure of the LPGA tour's history regarding slow play, but I don't hear about penalties being assessed ever.

I'd be pissed if I was her too, but I also think slow play rules should still exist. Just announce the change in policy first.

Well, they did it five times last year, and this is the third in 2012, with only 10 events in the book.

So it's not like no one on Tour ever heard of the policy. The players ALL know what the policy is, because it's been in effect for some time.

Now, it is also a fact that when warnings are issued, fast players are more likely to get bad times because they aren't used to being on the clock.  Slow players get on the clock regularly so they know how to avoid getting a penalty.

K

[Alex Miller]

I don't like slow play, but if you're going to start enforcing rules that just aren't being enforced most of the time, at least make an announcement or something first. I don't think Pressel has been given slow-play penalties before, in fact I'm not sure of the LPGA tour's history regarding slow play, but I don't hear about penalties being assessed ever.

I'd be pissed if I was her too, but I also think slow play rules should still exist. Just announce the change in policy first.

Well, they did it five times last year, and this is the third in 2012, with only 10 events in the book.

So it's not like no one on Tour ever heard of the policy. The players ALL know what the policy is, because it's been in effect for some time.

Now, it is also a fact that when warnings are issued, fast players are more likely to get bad times because they aren't used to being on the clock.  Slow players get on the clock regularly so they know how to avoid getting a penalty.

K

That's good to know. Since there appears to have been warning and precedent, I'm all cool with it and Pressel should not have been complaining.

Brian,

I don't think it's fair to say we wouldn't get along. I'm a pretty friendly guy and a fast player.

[Matthew Essig]

To go from winning the hole to losing the hole, OUCH!!!!!!

[jeffwarne]

When such an event is not considered controversial or noteworthy is when slow play might have a chance of being curbed,,,,,,

[Mac Plumart]

When such an event is not considered controversial or noteworthy is when slow play might have a chance of being curbed

BOOM!!

That is it.

No arguments over whether it is fair to lose a hole or lose a stroke.  You're 39 seconds over your alloted time...your penalized.  End of story.

Nice, Jeff, Nice.

[JLahrman]

When such an event is not considered controversial or noteworthy is when slow play might have a chance of being curbed,,,,,,

I agree.

As long as the players were given notice that the penalties are going to be enforced. Seems silly to have to tell them that they'll actually be enforcing a rule...but if there had been slow play penalties at the most recent Solheim Cup, every hole would have been lost via forfeit.

It's clear that play on Tour is not going to be sped up voluntarily by players. If it's to happen, there are going to be complaints and hurt feelings.

However, the trick is going to be speeding up play at all other levels. College and mini-tour events don't have the manpower to be timing every player.

[Steve Lapper]

Just finished dinner with a friend who walked the match at HFGC. It was clear to him (he's 2hcp and former club champ there) that Pressel had been slow playing/gaming Munoz a bit and was warned (officially ) earlier in the match. According to him (and he's actually played with Morgan in the past, she was acting a bit petulant and was "slightly beyond" deliberate throughout most of the match.


Sadly, the Sybase LPGC Match Play gets little or no TV time and almost less rag coverage. Without a wider audience, the lessons here won't travel far enough to have much impact. I only wish the PGA had the cohones to do this once or twice on a Sunday round.....only then would slow play reform leap to the frontal lobe.

[Jud_T]

I absolutely LOVE it.  Now let's see the PGA Tour grow a pair....

[Ken Moum]

However, the trick is going to be speeding up play at all other levels. College and mini-tour events don't have the manpower to be timing every player.

The AJGA has it reasonably under control with the policy pasted below.  Some of their advice may be a little too much for golf on TV, such as playing out of turn or not waiting by the green until everyone has putted out, but the red card system could easily be instituted at every level, and it would remove all the second guessing about enforcement.

IMHO, creating a time par for the PGA Tour would be the first, and most useful step in getting the men to pick up their pace.

By the way, Judy Rankin today said that in order to get a warning on the LPGA the players have to be both out of position and behind time par.

AJGA PACE OF PLAY GUIDELINES

All players should take responsibility to ensure every member in the group is following the AJGA Pace of Play guidelines.

Realize the group is “on the clock” as soon as they play from the teeing ground on the first hole.
Play ready golf throughout the entire round.
The first person to complete each hole should immediately go to the next tee and is expected to be the first person to tee off. The second person to finish should replace the flagstick.
When spotters, officials or parents are available to help search for a potentially lost ball, the AJGA recommends that players go forward to play his next shot or shots and hold the group’s position on the golf course.

OVERALL TIME PAR

Overall time par is the amount of time in which the AJGA Tournament Committee expects all players to complete a round. This will be expressed on a per-hole basis and an overall time for 18 holes. In part, time par is established with the understanding that 45 seconds or more to play a shot without distractions is excessive.

A group’s time begins when a member of the group has played a stroke from his starting teeing ground.
Checkpoint times are measured when the flagstick is replaced in the hole after all players in the group have holed out.
The AJGA Tournament Committee may adjust time par between tournament rounds.

OUT OF POSITION

"Out of position” is defined as:

Failure to complete the hole being played in less than the time established by the Committee after the group immediately ahead put the flagstick in on that hole (i.e. 14 minutes is defined as 00:14:00).
* The first group(s) of the day is judged only against time par until they get into position with any group ahead of them.

TIMING CARDS

Volunteers stationed at the green of each checkpoint hole will signal the group according to their position on the course.

Green card (No Penalty): The group is in position AND/OR within overall time par through that checkpoint.
Single Red card (Warning): The group is out of position AND behind overall time par through that checkpoint.
Double Red card (One-Stroke Penalty): The group is out of position, behind overall time par through that checkpoint AND did not make its required checkpoint-to-checkpoint time determined at the last red card checkpoint.

PENALTIES/BAD TIMES

Bad times: A player has recorded a bad time when he has taken in excess of 45 seconds to play a shot once it is his turn to play and there are no distractions. Players will be notified of the number of bad times they have committed when they receive their first red card.
Double red card: A one-stroke penalty may be assessed to each member in the group if the group receives a double red card. The one-stroke penalty will be assessed to any player with multiple bad times (minimum of three) or the player responsible for the slow play.
*A penalty stroke is added to the hole where the first red card was issued. Penalties will be confirmed with the group by an AJGA Rules Official and verified in the scoring area.

Undue Delay
If a player records five (5) bad times during the round, he will receive a one-stroke penalty for undue delay. Players will be warned after receiving three (3) and four (4) bad times.
The player will receive another penalty stroke if he records two (2) or more additional bad times.

RESCINDING A SINGLE RED CARD

A red card can be rescinded in two ways:

Group is in position with the group immediately ahead through next checkpoint.
Group is on or below overall time par through next checkpoint.
EXTENDING A SINGLE RED CARD

Once on a single red card, a group will be presented with another single red card if they play checkpoint-to-checkpoint gaining one minute on time par, but are still “Out of Position” AND behind overall time par through that checkpoint.
* If a group receives a red card at a checkpoint which is immediately preceding their final hole, and the final hole is played at or under time par, no penalty will be enforced.
*Timing will begin when the flagstick has been replaced in the hole of the checkpointe hole.

FACTORS IN DETERMINING TIME PAR

Listed are factors the AJGA takes into consideration in creating a fair time par at each event:

Difficulty and length of course / walks between holes
AJGA Pace of Play history for course
Conditions of competition

[Ken Moum]

Just finished dinner with a friend who walked the match at HFGC. It was clear to him (he's 2hcp and former club champ there) that Pressel had been slow playing/gaming Munoz a bit and was warned (officially ) earlier in the match. According to him (and he's actually played with Morgan in the past, she was acting a bit petulant and was "slightly beyond" deliberate throughout most of the match.

If that's true, my already low opinion of her dropped another notch or two...

K

[Carl Rogers]

John Paul Newport's article in the weekend WSJ had a lengthy discussion of Kevin (the snoo...ooozze) Na and the probable fines he will receive.  But Newport makes an interesting statement in this article, ..."And the Tour, lest we forget, exists primarily for the benefit of its members."  We, the golf fans and consumers, are not that relevant?

Hasn't slow play, which I do dislike intensely, morphed into just another hazard or rub of the green that the player must overcome?

The Solheim Cup is very painful to watch.  I really do not care who wins ... or loses.

I like Jason Dufner.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here are some post round quotes:


It all reverted to the morning semifinal in which Munoz and Pressel were both slow, although Munoz was admittedly a little slower. They were warned about slow play after nine holes and put on the clock after No. 11.
 
The 12th hole changed everything. Pressel won it with a par to seemingly take a 3-up lead.
 
However, before she could tee off on No. 13, tour official Doug Brecht informed her that she was being penalized for slow play. She had taken 2:09 to play her three shots, 39 seconds over the 30-second limit per shot.
 
In match play, a time penalty is the loss of the previous hole and that handed the admittedly slow-playing Munoz the hole. She was 1-down and back in the match.
 
''It was tough timing because it was a really big, I think, turning point in the match, going from 2-up to 3-up, and then all of a sudden back to 1-up,'' said Pressel, who was on the verge of tears several times in a post-match news conference after she beat Vicky Hurst 2 and 1 in the consolation match. ''You know, it was - I mean, it was really unfortunate.''
 
The time penalty was the first for Pressel in seven years on the tour and it left a very bad taste in her mouth, knowing Munoz was the slower player.
 
''I think that slow play is one of our biggest problems on tour,'' Pressel said. ''You know, I think that what bothers me the most is that we were given sufficient warning and she really didn't do anything to speed up and then I was penalized for it.''
 
Munoz said was apologetic, adding she was surprised Pressel was penalized.
 
''I know I was slow and I really apologized for that and I told her, but I do feel both of us were slow and she was the only one getting penalized, and that was not fair and I know that,'' Munoz said. ''I would never make her lose a hole.''


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/munoz-kung-advance-sybase-championship-162642895--golf.html;_ylt=AuTW5MZWtWgIxaXJNj7x4RUogsUF

[jeffwarne]

Here are some post round quotes:


It all reverted to the morning semifinal in which Munoz and Pressel were both slow, although Munoz was admittedly a little slower. They were warned about slow play after nine holes and put on the clock after No. 11.
 
The 12th hole changed everything. Pressel won it with a par to seemingly take a 3-up lead.
 
However, before she could tee off on No. 13, tour official Doug Brecht informed her that she was being penalized for slow play. She had taken 2:09 to play her three shots, 39 seconds over the 30-second limit per shot.
 
In match play, a time penalty is the loss of the previous hole and that handed the admittedly slow-playing Munoz the hole. She was 1-down and back in the match.
 
''It was tough timing because it was a really big, I think, turning point in the match, going from 2-up to 3-up, and then all of a sudden back to 1-up,'' said Pressel, who was on the verge of tears several times in a post-match news conference after she beat Vicky Hurst 2 and 1 in the consolation match. ''You know, it was - I mean, it was really unfortunate.''
 
The time penalty was the first for Pressel in seven years on the tour and it left a very bad taste in her mouth, knowing Munoz was the slower player.
 
''I think that slow play is one of our biggest problems on tour,'' Pressel said. ''You know, I think that what bothers me the most is that we were given sufficient warning and she really didn't do anything to speed up and then I was penalized for it.''
 
Munoz said was apologetic, adding she was surprised Pressel was penalized.
 
''I know I was slow and I really apologized for that and I told her, but I do feel both of us were slow and she was the only one getting penalized, and that was not fair and I know that,'' Munoz said. ''I would never make her lose a hole.''


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/munoz-kung-advance-sybase-championship-162642895--golf.html;_ylt=AuTW5MZWtWgIxaXJNj7x4RUogsUF

Fair enough, she had some strong wind come up on the tee causing her to back off,resulting in her taking a long time over her alottment.
However,she played her second with no urgency whatsover, taking 4 practice swings, and then backing off.
Knowing that the time is cumulative, wouldn't you think she or her caddie might've thought to pick up the pace a little?
Ironically, if it hadn't been for the wind gust, she'd have made her time and everybody would've preceeded with the business as usual 4 practice swngs then backoff nonsense, and there'd be no story,just the usual glacial LPGA

[Alex Miller]

I think like Ken mentioned earlier, since she's not used to being on the clock herself (never having been penalized) she might not have known how to deal with it and avoid the penalty.

I'm all for penalizing slow play, but perhaps this case shows why there's trepidation about doing so.

[jeffwarne]

I think like Ken mentioned earlier, since she's not used to being on the clock herself (never having been penalized) she might not have known how to deal with it and avoid the penalty.

I'm all for penalizing slow play, but perhaps this case shows why there's trepidation about doing so.

with what 5 or less penalties a year,very few are used to being penalized.
watch the tape and tell me if she looks as if she has even an inkling she's on the clock.
Although perhaps 4 practice swings is 1/2 her usual?
agreed the rules are pretty arbitrary, but Na at least was aware of his behavior and trying to make it up in other ways

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I know that "rules are rules" but I think this is akin to getting a slow play warning from a ranger if a foursome is the only one on the course.