[Tom MacWood]

We've got a few years of material now, and the answer might be its not regional.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Why would it be regional?

I've always thought that the business grew through small clusters of people who knew each other well.  There were all the Scots pros 100 years ago; the Philadelphia school of George Crump's friends; Colt, MacKenzie and Alison [and Morrison]; and more recently, the minimalist brigade.

[Mac Plumart]

There are some unbelievable golf architecture minds around Atlanta right now.

 

[Dan Herrmann]

I don't think regions mean as much as they once did.  Any architect can do a job anywhere in the world today.

[TEPaul]

I don't think there has ever been much question that Philadelphia has always produced the best architects and they have the courses to prove it. Even Ben Crenshaw once said that. This seems to be an architectural fact that is both widely known and receives a consensus opinion around the country and perhaps the world. If any outside architects try to sneak in here and do anything around here, Philadelphia has about a century old "syndrome" and a really effective "posse" to quash any evidence that an outsider did anything around here or even came here.

[Joe Bausch]

I don't think there has ever been much question that Philadelphia has always produced the best architects and they have the courses to prove it. Even Ben Crenshaw once said that. This seems to be an architectural fact that is both widely known and receives a consensus opinion around the country and perhaps the world. If any outside architects try to sneak in here and do anything around here, Philadelphia has about a century old "syndrome" and a really effective "posse" to quash any evidence that an outsider did anything around here or even came here.

+1

[Mac Plumart]

Even nowadays, is it possible iron sharpens iron?  Keen minds working together in close vicinity to one another can discuss ideas, see each others work, critique, listen, come up with new stuff, make each other better. 

I think Mike Riley and Chris Cupit may have done that here in the ATL.

[DMoriarty]

Historically in the United States I think it may have been more a matter of timing than region.

[Niall C]

Even nowadays, is it possible iron sharpens iron?  Keen minds working together in close vicinity to one another can discuss ideas, see each others work, critique, listen, come up with new stuff, make each other better. 

I think Mike Riley and Chris Cupit may have done that here in the ATL.

Mac

Good point. No doubt in my mind that is true. In the old days geography would have played a very important part of that however these days with modern communications, ease of travel etc, where someone comes from seems an irrelevance given their reference points and influences are likely to be global in nature.

Niall

[Mike_Young]

PRACTICE makes the best golf architects not regions.  BUT region does have a HUGE effect on "best courses".  And therefore one could assume that the ODG's or even modern living in specific areas would have bettter material ( population, climate, soils etc)than other areas and therefore better odds of producing a well known product.  Same goes for lots of things...ex:  the best welders came from the Midwest and the auto industry and steel towns etc....best skiers form the snow country and the best bobsledders from Jamaica.

[Jeff_Mingay]

The answer is Canada, of course

[Bradley Anderson]

The architects who have worked the Chicago region include:

Herbert Tweedie
Jim Foulis
Thomas Bendelow
Edward Dearie, Jr
Langford & Moreau
O'Neil & Roseman
Robert Bruce Harris
Roger Packard
James Spear
Killian & Nugent
Robert Lohmann
David Esler
Greg Martin
Rick Jacobsen

[RJ_Daley]

Temporal and frontal lobes regions have produced the greatest architects.

[DMoriarty]

Bradley Anderson,

Your list of Chicago arches misses some pretty prominent ones, including Chandler Egan, Willie Watson, H.J. Whigham, and of course C.B. Macdonald.

One could trace a pretty good portion a quality architecture in the US by tracing the footsteps and influence of CBM.  For example, where would the Philadelphia school be without Merion?  Strike that. Let's try to keep this on topic. 

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley Anderson,

Your list of Chicago arches misses some pretty prominent ones, including Chandler Egan, Willie Watson, H.J. Whigham, and of course C.B. Macdonald.

One could trace a pretty good portion a quality architecture in the US by tracing the footsteps and influence of CBM.  For example, where would the Philadelphia school be without Merion?  Strike that. Let's try to keep this on topic. 

David, I tried to limit my list to those who lived and worked out of the Chicago region. So I guess technically you could include Macdonald and Whigham because they designed at least one course each when they lived here.

Watson and Egan are not familiar to me and my reference books are still packed away from a move I recently made.

[DMoriarty]

"Technically you could include Macdonald and Whigham . . .."   You are kidding right?  You are talking about Chicago golf, aren't you?  

Not sure if Egan designed any courses in Chicago, but he learned the game there, and lived there before moving to the West Coast, where he designed or redesigned some excellent courses.  I've seen him referred to as a follower of CBM's approach to design, so there is a possible Chicago connection.

As for Watson, he was a prominent designer in Chicago.   Man he gets no respect when he doesn't even get mentioned in Chicago!

[DMoriarty]

Bradley,

Here is a brief history on Watson as it appears on Belvedere's website.  Also I think Tom MacWood has compiled info in the back pages.

http://www.belvederegolfclub.com/History/WillieWatson.aspx

[Bradley Anderson]

"Technically you could include Macdonald and Whigham . . .."   You are kidding right?  You are talking about Chicago golf, aren't you?  

Not sure if Egan designed any courses in Chicago, but he learned the game there, and lived there before moving to the West Coast, where he designed or redesigned some excellent courses.  I've seen him referred to as a follower of CBM's approach to design, so there is a possible Chicago connection.

As for Watson, he was a prominent designer in Chicago.   Man he gets no respect when he doesn't even get mentioned in Chicago!

David,

What I had in mind with my list was architects who worked from the Chicago region as their base. Including Macdonald in that list is no problem with me but I think New York has more of a claim on him than we do in Chicago since he did most of his work from that location.

Oh yea Watson. Funny I missed that since I was just at a Watson course last week - Kalamazoo CC. It appears that most of Watson's work is still on the ground at Kalamazoo. If you ever get the chance to play it you'll love those greens, and they have taken the perimeter cut right down to the edge of the bunkers on the surrounds. I wish I had my camera with me when I was out there - beautiful course!

[DMoriarty]

Bradley,

Given the large roles both CBM and HJW played in the birth of golf and gca in Chicago and America, I think it would be a mistake to underestimate them as prominent Chicago designers.  They were there and quite productive in the beginning and in my mind that counts for a lot. 

As for Watson, I am envious that you got to see a course where is work is still somewhat intact.  He did quite a lot of work in California, but with changes it is a bit difficult to tell what is him and what is someone else.     I don't know if it is accurate or not, but I've read that he was known for building quite large greens . . . do the greens at Kalamazoo fit this mold?    I'd love to see photos if you ever get the chance. Even that old photo of Belvedere at that link is fascinating.    Some here have tried in the past to dismiss Watson as a dark ages designer but, while his bunkers were apparently quite deep and difficult, from what I can tell his work was quite impressive.

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley,

Given the large roles both CBM and HJW played in the birth of golf and gca in Chicago and America, I think it would be a mistake to underestimate them as prominent Chicago designers.  They were there and quite productive in the beginning and in my mind that counts for a lot.  

As for Watson, I am envious that you got to see a course where is work is still somewhat intact.  He did quite a lot of work in California, but with changes it is a bit difficult to tell what is him and what is someone else.     I don't know if it is accurate or not, but I've read that he was known for building quite large greens . . . do the greens at Kalamazoo fit this mold?    I'd love to see photos if you ever get the chance. Even that old photo of Belvedere at that link is fascinating.    Some here have tried in the past to dismiss Watson as a dark ages designer but, while his bunkers were apparently quite deep and difficult, from what I can tell his work was quite impressive.

David,

I wouldn't describe the greens at Kalamazoo as large, but average. The tenth green at Kalamazoo has a tremendous amount of movement in it and it is probably only about 5,000 sq ft.. There is significant movement in the terrain and that may account for the greens being somewhat smaller than they are at Belvedere. Many of the greens are built on knolls.

The bunkers are saucer and oval shaped and generally flashed sand half way up the slope. There are no pronounced hummocks around the bunkers and that makes them perhaps less artful as a Ross or a Tillinghast bunker.

This picture link http://kalamazoocountryclub.com/socialnetwork/administrator/albums/3 doesn't do the course justice as I it appears these were taken prior to their work of expanding the short cut to the edges of the bunkers.

The terrain sets up blind shots on a couple holes. Unfortunately we just had a meeting there and I didn't bring my clubs but the superintendent gave me a hole by hole tour.

[RJ_Daley]

Bradley, I'm guessing our own Jeff Brauer would suggest his name on your Chicago regional list.  Also, Dick and Rick Phelps are of that lineage, even though I don't think Rick ever lived there.  RB spawned that line, then Nugent and Killian launched others, not to forget Bruce Borland.  I think there is probably a load more who have that lineage  that we are missing.  Brauer could surely inform us of who we are missing.

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley, I'm guessing our own Jeff Brauer would suggest his name on your Chicago regional list.  Also, Dick and Rick Phelps are of that lineage, even though I don't think Rick ever lived there.  RB spawned that line, then Nugent and Killian launched others, not to forget Bruce Borland.  I think there is probably a load more who have that lineage  that we are missing.  Brauer could surely inform us of who we are missing.

RJ,

I wonder how much influence RB Harris had on his associates? I asked Ken Killian that once and he indicated that he did not agree with RB"s style of design at all. Later in his own career Ken would remodel some of those  golf courses that RB built.

Is there a link to all those men who worked for RB and possibly even to the second generation of men who worked for the men who worked for RB?

[RJ_Daley]

Bradley, I have a vague memory of someone who did some bracket charts, like a family tree thing a number of years back.  While now an old work, the Cornish and Whitten bio's generally make note of who various archies trained under.  Maybe the ASGCA has something that notes some of these family tree, regional architecture schools of philosophy, style, and techniques. 

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