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Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Return to Cal Club
« on: May 17, 2012, 12:02:48 PM »
I played Cal Club last January (2011) for the first and only time (i.e., I hadn't seen it pre-renovation).  For various reasons, it easily jumped high into my list of personal favorites, and I could list all of those reasons here.  But I also thought it had some negatives -- I thought the 3rd and 5th holes were weak; I thought the up and back nature of 13, 14, and 16 was too repetitive; and I didn't think the par 3's are as good as Ran's review suggests.  I get that these are quibbles, and I left South San Francisco really wanting to return.  Fortunately, I get to do so tomorrow, and am very curious to see if those initial impressions are right, wrong, or crazy.

Anyone else have similar reactions?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2012, 12:23:42 PM »
I've only played Cal Club once...a few months ago.

I really like it and enjoyed it.  I thought it had good variety,particularly as it relates to green sites.  Some slopes and angles repelled the balls and some could be used to funnel to ball close to the hole.

I thought the walk was very pleasant and and I love how the scenic backdrops were incorporated into the courses layout.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on your next round there.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2012, 12:31:30 PM »
I too really enjoyed Cal Club. After reading Ran’s review and seeing the awesome pictures I expected a lot. It was not disappointing. In fact it was as much fun to play (for our group) as any in the area - SFGC, OC and Pasatiempo included. It was exceptionally enjoyable off the tee and the greens were perfect. Fast, firm and rolled very smoothly. Only strange thing was the actual color or the grass on the greens (not sure the grass type). The playability more than made up for it. Bunkering was also a highlight both the placement and the aesthetic look. The members (our host especially), setting and layout made it a must return when possible.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2012, 01:00:19 PM »
I played Cal Club last January (2011) for the first and only time (i.e., I hadn't seen it pre-renovation).  For various reasons, it easily jumped high into my list of personal favorites, and I could list all of those reasons here.  But I also thought it had some negatives -- I thought the 3rd and 5th holes were weak; I thought the up and back nature of 13, 14, and 16 was too repetitive; and I didn't think the par 3's are as good as Ran's review suggests.  I get that these are quibbles, and I left South San Francisco really wanting to return.  Fortunately, I get to do so tomorrow, and am very curious to see if those initial impressions are right, wrong, or crazy.

Anyone else have similar reactions?

Can you elaborate? What is weak about 3 and 5? In what way were 13, 14, and 15 repetitive? Other than being on the same property, what do those holes have in common?!

John Handley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2012, 01:40:46 PM »
Carl-

It will be interesting to see your impressions of the Cal Club after a return visit.  Like most things, once is not enough to truly appreciate the nuances, subleties and greatness.  Personally, I think you will have a different perspective second time around.

In full disclosure I am a member of the Cal Club.  That being said I've played the golf course numerous times.  I can tell you that the 3rd hole is actually brilliant and one of the best holes on the golf course.  The tee shot is a demanding drive that requires accuracy to A) avoid the bunkers on the right (certian bogey or worse) and B) stay out of the trees left.  Once you safely find the fairway, you have around 130-170 yards on your second shot to an amazingly difficult green.  If you hit the green then a two putt is certainly not guatanteed.  trying to one putt the 3rd green no matter where the pin is located is a challenging task.  I play with some of the best players at Cal Club and I can assure you if we walk off the 3rd hole with par we are pleased.

As for the par 3's, they are as difficult a collection as you will find anywhere.  Playing from the back tees (not to mention the further back Venturi Tees) you will encounter a 5/6 iron on #6, a 3/4 iron or hybrid on #8, another 3/4 iron or hybrid on #12 and an 8/9/PW on #16.  For the membeship, #6 is the hardest hole to make par.  In the summer, good luck holding the green with your tee shot.  Number 8 is a wonderful hole that plays downhill.  Par is a good score and the 8th provides a little easier chance to get up and down if you miss the green.  #12 is comparable to #8 in length and difficulty but plays uphill instead of down.  And that brings us to #16.  A short but devlish par 3 especially if the wind is blowing (which is almost always is at Cal Club). With an 8/9/PW in your hand you think that it is a birdie hole and if you hit a good shot you can be rewarded.  I have an ace on #16.  I also made a double on #16 last time I played and shot 72.  Nothing is easy at Cal Club.  If you make it around the par 3's at Cal in 12 stokes, I promise you have gained strokes on your playing partners.

I know I am biased but I absolutely love the Cal Club and have been able to experience it's greatness and challenge.  To shoot a good score at Cal you have to be playing well, nothing can be taken for granted.  To me it is truly a great test of golf.

Have fun and enjoy your time at the Cal Club. 
2024 Line Up: Spanish Oaks GC, Cal Club, Cherokee Plantation, Huntercombe, West Sussex, Hankley Common, Royal St. Georges, Sunningdale New & Old, CC of the Rockies, Royal Lytham, Royal Birkdale, Formby, Royal Liverpool, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Berkshire Red, Walton Heath Old, Austin GC,

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2012, 01:57:30 PM »
I think Cal Club is an absolutely terrific course. 

In fairness, I do see some compromise in the 7th hole.  Taken alone, I think it is an interesting  hole but, at least to me, it seems to have a slightly different character than the rest of the course and doesn't quite blend.  8 is perfectly fine but I don't get as excited about it as Ran does.  I don't like the change in direction as you walk off of 6th green and head back to 7 but otherwise Cal Club has a wonderful routing. 

I really don't understand your feelings about the back nine which I think is downright terrific.  In a San Francisco dream world, I would put the front nine of SFGC with the back nine of Cal CLub and I think you'd get a clear World Top 10 course.

Overall, I think Cal Club deserves recognition as a World Top 100 course and deserves lots of praise and study.  I'd love to be a member at a place like Cal Club.

Bart

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2012, 02:03:48 PM »
Not every hole is great. The course is incredible to play. It plays firm and fast and is a blast to make shots on.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 02:06:12 PM »
Not every hole is great. The course is incredible to play. It plays firm and fast and is a blast to make shots on.

Well said!

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2012, 02:10:44 PM »
Matt and John:

As I mentioned above, I loved Cal Club the first time around -- indeed, it's probably #1 on my list of courses (of those that I've played) that I'd want to have as a 2nd membership.  The primary purpose of my post was to force myself to write down those initial negative reactions so that I would have a record against which to test them (rather than convincing myself after the 2nd play that I didn't really feel that way).  I freely recognize that I may have different views after this play -- that's the whole point.  Indeed, it would be great if I end up thinking I was just wrong.

Matt:

I'm not a huge fan of holes that simply parallel one another up and back, which was the sense I had of 13/14/16.  Obviously they have differences, but they all traverse the same land in parallel (though 1 of the 3 in a different direction).  As for 5, it seemed like a short par 4 without much strategy to the tee shot -- unless you are really good at blind 50 yard pitches, the only play is to lay back to a full wedge.  In any event, do you think the course is without any weaknesses, or just not the ones I've identified?    

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2012, 02:11:39 PM »
Not every hole is great. The course is incredible to play. It plays firm and fast and is a blast to make shots on.

This is pretty close to my view, except I probably think that there are more great holes than Tiger!

John Handley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2012, 02:45:37 PM »
"Not every hole is great" is certainly true for about 99.99% of all golf courses built.  I guess I will leave it at that.

From my viewpoint, I think #5 would be the weakest hole at Cal.  The trouble is off the tee but you can hit driver or 3-wood past the bunkers and be left with a delicate 30-75 yard pitch to a shallow green.  The green does tilt from back to front so a downhill is a challenge.  In a tournament a front right pin position changes your attitude towards the 5th. 

I'd say #11 is probably the next weakest hole in my opinion.  Fairly simple downhill tee shot then a short 100-130 yard shot in to the green.  Visually it's a good hole but in terms of par it is pretty simple. 

Then I'd probably have to say #7 is next on my list.  It's a new hole and very interesting on it's own but it does tweak the routing a bit and visually doesn't fit with the rest of the course.  I've seen everything from 2 to 10 on the hole though.

For me, I'd prably put #15 the par 5 as next in terms of weakness.  Straightforward par 5 with brilliant bunkering.  For long hitters it can be reachable but if not then it's a easy 3 shotter.  The green is very challenging to putt so you cant take it for granted.

I guess my point in all of this is that I appreciate the subtleties and challenge of the Cal Club and think Kyle Phillips did an amazing job on the redesign. Thomas Bastis does a fantastic job with the golf course and Al Jamieson deserves a ton of credit for his leadership.  It is a great golf club and a joy to play.  If you don't spend time in the bar afterwards then you've missed out on a good time.

If you go to the Cal Club and shoot your handicap then you have done better than most.  It is a great challenge and a fun experience.  It is one of those rides that when you get off, you run to the front of the line to do it all over again.
2024 Line Up: Spanish Oaks GC, Cal Club, Cherokee Plantation, Huntercombe, West Sussex, Hankley Common, Royal St. Georges, Sunningdale New & Old, CC of the Rockies, Royal Lytham, Royal Birkdale, Formby, Royal Liverpool, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Berkshire Red, Walton Heath Old, Austin GC,

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2012, 02:48:43 PM »
I'm probably pandering here, but I have to say, as a guy who fancies AV Macan's work, the Cal Club is very, very high on my list of courses that I want to see. I haven't read anything on this site to dissuade me from that notion. I envy that you are making a return trip.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2012, 03:02:30 PM »
I'm probably pandering here, but I have to say, as a guy who fancies AV Macan's work, the Cal Club is very, very high on my list of courses that I want to see. I haven't read anything on this site to dissuade me from that notion. I envy that you are making a return trip.

What if anything is left of Macan's golf course?   Not much from what I've been reading.

I'm also a big Macan fan, past member of Columbia-Edgewater in Portland and excited about playing Victoria and Royal Colwood next month!

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2012, 03:14:34 PM »
I guess I've been giving AV Macan primary credit for the routing, much of which remains.

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2012, 04:43:48 PM »
Cal Club is the real deal, and I enjoy it each time i get the chance to play it.  Not fair to call it, or SFGC, or Olympic better than the other, because they're all so different.  I'd jump at any opportunity to play it if you're in the area and invited.

#7 is a certainly a unique golf hole, unlike others you'll find among the San Francisco area courses. 

#3 is an awesome golf hole, especially the greensite which, if I'm not mistaken, shares some bunkering or other trouble with #8, the downhill par 3 coming in from the other direction. 

#13-15 seem like they'd be "repetitious" as they parallel each other, but #14 kinda doglegs left (am I correct?) so it breaks up any back-and-forth feel.  On an aside, this is the same argument some have made against Aronimink as a truly great golf course with holes 13-16... which i think is nonesense.

#5 is good short par-4.  For big hitters maybe it's a bit of a push-over compared to par.  For others (i.e. me) it requires some thought off the tee whether to challenge the bunker on the right or accept a longer iron approach into that green.

Par-3's are all stellar, with #6 maybe the least of the bunch because it seems to require such a precise shot or else all other shots will repel off the green.  I love #16... another example of a GREAT SHORT PAR 3... sure, you'll have a wedge in your hand, but don't miss!

And, the club is great.  The members and staff are very hospitable and seem to want to share or at least show-off their jewel of a course.  And, whatever that drink they pour at the bar is, it's wicked. 

WW

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2012, 05:36:26 PM »
And, whatever that drink they pour at the bar is, it's wicked. 

WW


Hmmm...I missed that.  Sounds like a good reason to return - not that I needed one.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2012, 05:41:11 PM »
And, whatever that drink they pour at the bar is, it's wicked. 

WW


Hmmm...I missed that.  Sounds like a good reason to return - not that I needed one.

Good to know for tomorrow....!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2012, 06:34:52 PM »
I guess I've been giving AV Macan primary credit for the routing, much of which remains.

Joe, I played there a few times in the late '70s, early '80s, not post redo, but there were hole changes by Kyle Phillips, and before that the construction of I-280 played havoc with the routing as it did to SFGC and maybe Lake Merced.

Someone who knows more than me can lay this out more clearly.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2012, 03:21:50 PM »
I was lucky enough to visit Cal last month. It was a real highlight on a trip which included many standout courses and great experiences. I too expected a lot having read Ran's review prior to the trip. Add me to the list of people not disappointed in the least!

I loved 3 and 7. I understand the walk back to the 7th tee, and the slightly different topography and feel of the hole, as well as possibility of the memory of what was there, skewing some people's thought's on the layout as it is today. I just think the vast choice of line and club on that tee, with commensurate impact upon approach play, is wonderful.

I thought that 12 thru 15 were more than sufficiently different so as to maintain high interest. The grass selection made sense, the fairways were firm and quick, and the course was presented beautifully.  The members were justifiably proud of their course and Club. I would jump at the chance to play there again.

Carl - looking forward to your thoughts on the course after repeat play...

Matthew
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Mark Provenzano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2012, 04:51:53 PM »
The often iffy weather we have here in South San Francisco has taken a break--should have been a perfect day for another go at Cal Club for Carl. Interested in hearing his second impression.

Kirk Moon

Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2012, 11:56:07 AM »
I thought I'd put in my two cents worth since I was fortunate to be able to play the Cal Club yesterday under perfect conditions.  Great experience.  This was my second time playing the course (both post renovation.)

I agree that 13-15 have a bit of a back and forth feel to them, but IMHO the lay of the land makes each of the holes quite unique.

As to the other observations, I had a somewhat different take than the OP.  I love the visuals and the strategic challenge of the third hole.  I thought the par threes were beautiful and challenging and each one had its own unique character.  I know 7 is somewhat controversial, but I think it is wonderful.  It is, indeed, somewhat out of character compared to the rest of the course, but it is visually stunning and has a very exciting risk/reward proposition and an approach that requires thought and careful execution.  It may be my favorite hole on the course. 

I am a mid/highish handicap player with good distance but relatively poor directional control off the tee and I appreciate the fact that on many (most) holes it is possible to be a bit errant off the tee and suffer the consequences but not be completely knocked out of the hole.  For a player with my limitations the Cal Club is particularly enjoyable. 

And I think the greens at the Cal Club are fantastic, perhaps the best I have experienced.  Smooth as a billiard table.  True as can be.  Fast but not ridiculous.  And with enough contour to be very interesting but not so much as to be "silly". 

To me, the Cal Club has an ideal combination of Mackenzie-esque feel (the bunkering is amazing) and overall Makenzie-esque design philosophy (forgiving off the tee with increasing challenge towards the green) but without the severe (and, to me, occasionally frustrating) Mackenzie greens. Kind of perfect in a way. I found it to be a very satisfying golf experience and I feel fortunate to have had the opportunity to enjoy it. 

Ben Voelker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2012, 01:53:18 PM »
I played Cal Club last January (2011) for the first and only time (i.e., I hadn't seen it pre-renovation).  For various reasons, it easily jumped high into my list of personal favorites, and I could list all of those reasons here.  But I also thought it had some negatives -- I thought the 3rd and 5th holes were weak; I thought the up and back nature of 13, 14, and 16 was too repetitive; and I didn't think the par 3's are as good as Ran's review suggests.  I get that these are quibbles, and I left South San Francisco really wanting to return.  Fortunately, I get to do so tomorrow, and am very curious to see if those initial impressions are right, wrong, or crazy.

Anyone else have similar reactions?

Carl,

I am very surprised to see that you thought the 3rd was weak.  It is probably one of my favorite holes on the course.  I thought it was a very unique downhill tee shot on a course with a number of uphill and/or blind drives.  The approach is super tough over the fronting bunkers if you cannot keep the tee ball close to the fairway bunkers, which by the way are a real penalty if you find them.

I agree about the 5th.  I feel like its a short 4 without many options.  Every time I played the hole, it felt a little underwhelming compared to the rest of the course.  Still, its not an easy par with such a tough green.

While much of the back nine does zig zag back and forth, I think there is enough variety in character that they are not repetitive.  One of my favorite features of 13/14 is that the scorecard suggests that 13 should be easy relative to 14, but the opposite is true.  13 was always frustrating for me because its short on the scorecard while 14 played quite short since it is downhill.

I will be curious to see your comments once you have returned from your trip.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2012, 11:08:03 AM »
I had a spectacular day at the Cal Club on Friday.  The weather was beautiful (mid-60’s, not a cloud in the sky), but very windy.  The course was in terrific condition and played very firm everywhere; my host told me that the greens, which were in great shape, were running a bit slower than normal because they had recently been topdressed (he said “sanded,” which I am assuming was topdressed).  Here are some other thoughts:

1.  Many holes have either really fun banks off of which approach shots can be played or areas in front where balls can be bounced into greens.  Because the course is really firm, these are legitimate options—my host’s pitch of choice from about 40 yards is a low punch runner that he has perfected, and on 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, and 17 I played shots to bounce toward the pin from the side or in front.

2.  Because it was really windy, the contrast between the uphill and downhill holes on the back nine was huge--the downhill holes played downwind (making them short but tricky with the 2nd shot), while the uphill holes played into the wind (making them really hard).  With that wind, there was certainly nothing repetitive about those holes, contrary to my initial post.  And even without that wind, the holes are certainly pretty different.  So I was wrong about that one.    

3.  Several holes have cool views that the redesign embraces, but my favorite spot is around the 11th green, which has slopes all around it, the clubhouse above it, the 18th green to the side, and a good view of most of the rest of the bank nine.

4.  I didn’t mention the 7th hole in my original post, but my reaction to it on a second play is that it seems a bit out of character with the rest of the course, but I like it as a hole – there’s a lot of room left, but the wider you go left (and away from the bunkers), the blinder the second shot.  And it wasn’t an option for us with the wind we had, but I suspect on calm days, and certainly on days where the wind is behind, it also presents the possibility of trying to sling one left to right down the slope toward the green with the driver . . . which also brings a big number into play.  So lots of options with (as Matthew said) corresponding effects on the difficulty of the next shot.

5.  I’ll stand by my views about 5 (which several others have echoed).  It’s probably more strategic than I had originally remembered, since the layup to 100 yards brings sand into play on both sides. But still probably the weakest hole on the course, IMHO.

6.  I’ll admit I was wrong about 3.  I had originally thought it was overly penal, but even into the wind, it’s not that long, and if you bail left,  you’re appropriately stuck with having to work the ball around the trees or leaving yourself with a pitch.  The greensite is awesome too.  

7.  As for the par 3s, I love 12, and think 8 is solid.  6 is cool but pretty penal, especially in the wind we had.  16 has been improved by the new fence, such that it doesn’t feel like you reach over and grab whatever the neighbor is cooking on his grill.  It also presents a different shot than the other holes – I hit 8 iron on 6, 6 iron on both 8 and 12, and gap wedge on 16.  But it still feels squeezed into that space.  

8.  The clubhouse is very old school and feels like you're stepping back in time to the California of Reagan or Nixon.  Very cool (to me at least). 

9.  I asked for their special/standard drink, which was good but not great IMHO.  I think they said it’s absolute/lemon/sour mix/grenadine/something else.  

Bottom line:  great course, great club, surprised it isn’t ranked higher.  
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 11:08:43 AM by Carl Nichols »

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2012, 11:23:15 AM »
One question about the firm conditions at Cal Club -- does anyone know what kind of sand they used to cap the course (as I understand they did when they renovated) and/or the kinds of grass out there?  The sand in the divot mix is really dark, and the greens are a very dark green.  The fairway grass is also interesting.

Kirk Moon

Re: Return to Cal Club
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2012, 12:33:39 AM »
One question about the firm conditions at Cal Club -- does anyone know what kind of sand they used to cap the course (as I understand they did when they renovated) and/or the kinds of grass out there?  The sand in the divot mix is really dark, and the greens are a very dark green.  The fairway grass is also interesting.
I can't answer your question about the fairway sand type, but I know they created a "sand gradient" on all fairways where they laid down 4" of new sand and then blended it in with the underlying soil to a depth of 8-10".  This might account for the dark color you noticed.  The grass varieties in the fairways are a mix of three different fine fescues and Colonial bentgrass.  Greens are bentgrass (A1/A4 mix).  The color of the greens is due to the protocol employed to maintain the pH of the soil in a range that favors bentgrass and suppresses poa.  I don't know exactly how the protocol works. 

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