[archie_struthers]

 


As a pace of play killer, they are quite effective

[Brent Hutto]

The county-owned course in my county has a short Par 5 as its opener. One that most people seem to think they can reach. So you get the logjam in the first fairway "waiting for the green to clear" and then it is followed immediately by a Par 3.

So being a heavily-played municipal course, as one can imagine it's generally quite clear after the 30-40 minutes it takes you to make it to the third tee just what kind of day is ahead!

[Tom Bagley]

Certainly proceeding on a formulaic route and ignoring the land will yield a bad result.  However, Hunter, Thomas, MacKenzie and others wrote about "ideal" courses; Hunter, in fact, cited Braid's plan for an ideal course.

Thomas wrote, "It is advisable to give a good get-away, and not to have a one-shot hole, or a short two-shotter, in the first three holes."

Other than evidence based on actual holes constructed, is anyone aware of any architects who expressed a view that was explicitly contradictory to Thomas' beliefs?  It might be something as straightforward as "Par is irrelevant; you gotta do what you gotta do."  It would, however, be interesting to learn if anyone was a PROPONENT of the idea.

[Michael Blake]

I read somewhere that the worst possible beginning to a golf course (for pace of play) is a par 5 opener followed by a par 3. Golfers load up on the par 5 then everyone has to wait to play the par 3.

Mike,

The course I grew up playing was a Charles Banks muni and the opener is a long, straight, narrow par 5 with OB right (a busy street,) and trees lining the left.  Followed by a 200 yard par 3.  It was always backed up.

I don't know if that is the original routing.  I think the course used to be part of Essex County CC.
Maybe George Bahto, Mr. Mucci, Nuzzo, or anyone else familiar can elaborate on the routing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The precedent may have been set as early as 1899 with GCGC's 2nd hole.

Not unusually, par three's have served as connectors in a routing, which may explain why they don't appear early in the round.
Ditto the last hole, although I can think of many old courses ending with a par 3 including GCGC.

I believe Westchester opened with a par 3, which is most unusual.

[Brad LeClair]

There are a bunch here in the metro area:

Shinnecock (as mentioned above)
GCGC
Somerset Hills
Galloway

[archie_struthers]

 

when we bought Greate Bay ( Park circa 1923-25)  in 1998 it had been rerouted and changed so that a short par four opener was followed by a strange par 3 .  the first thing we did was rip out the par three and build a replacement on some land we had between 16 and 17 .

The second hole was rebuilt fairly close to the original Park hole, with the exception of a centerline bunker which we massaged and left. The new par three replaced the old #2 and became our 16th hole.  Not only does it look more like the original golf course , it fits quite well into the routing.  I know some of the members thought I was goofy when they saw me batting balls all around where the new hole would end up being built , buy they didn't say much at the time.

The course now plays exceptionally quickly , versus a guaranteed backup . We have a short three as our current third hole , but it doesn't seem to hurt the flow much.  if the second hole is fairly long it helps , and ours is>

[Matthew Petersen]

The course I grew up playing most often (Meadow Hills in Aurora, CO) started with a nasty long par 4 followed by a mid/long difficult par 3. Always a big backup on that second tee. Then there was another par 3 at #4 ... and not another until #13!

[Matt Waterbury]

It's all relative.

When I was first picking up the game, my "home" course was Leo J. Martin, just outside Boston. $18 per round, and that was probably pushing what it was worth. Started short par 4, medium straight away par 5, short par 3 with an impossible green. Given the typical muni crowd on a Saturday morning, the log jam at the 3rd tee was epic.

Looking at the other end of the spectrum: Fishers Island should be a nightmare start, technically. Short par 4...challenging redan par 3...forced carry short par 4 with a skyline green that you cannot miss...forced carry medium par 4 with a blind approach to the puchbowl...monster uphill in to the wind par 3 Biarritz...

Never really been in a log jam on Fishers. But suppose there are worse places to be...

Cheers,
Matt

[Bill Crane]

Home course - Springdale GC in Princeton - established 1895, Wm Flynn re-design in 1925:
Original routing - second hole a 150 yard Par 3  (routing changed due to new clubhouse site 2008)

Chechesee Creek Club - Coore/Crenshaw - 2nd Par 3 -194 yards from back - hard to hit !

Somerset Hills - Tillinghast - 2nd hole - super REDAN.

Merion, Pine Valley par 3s at 3rd Hole.

[Tom Ferrell]

Here at Colorado Golf Club, the course opens with a long par-5 and then a cool little pitch-shot par-3.  Bill Coore said he would rather not have a par-3 second, but the hole was right there and was too good to pass up.

That second at Chechessee is a helluva hole!

[Matthew Essig]

So to kind of wrap things up, a par 3 2nd is a bad idea, even though some great courses have par 3 2nd's.

[Jordan Wall]

Shinnecock's second is a brutally tough one shotter.  219 and uphill when I played it, not such an easy task.

[Matthew Petersen]

So to kind of wrap things up, a par 3 2nd is a bad idea, even though some great courses have par 3 2nd's.

Seems like most of the great courses with a par 3 second being mentioned are private clubs where a logjam of people isn't too likely to be an issue anyway.

At munis, it seems most reports are of headaches on the second tee.

As an in between, how about an example at a CCFAD? Troon North (Monument, I think, I can't ever remember which is which) has a par 3 at the second. I've never noted any significant backup there.

[Kalen Braley]

Pacific Grove = 1st two holes are par 3s, and so is #9 and #10.

[Matthew Essig]

I was kind of thinking about how starting with a par 3 would alter waiting time and other headaches because you haven't teed off yet if waiting on the 1st tee.

[Matthew Rose]

#2 at St Louis CC is the Biarritz, right? Or is it #3?

[Matthew Petersen]

How might a driveable par 4 as the second hole be looked at?

WeKoPa Saguaro's wonderful 2nd is a driveable hole. Maybe the only course I can think of with such a hole at #2. I don't recall it ever being an issue, though I have waited for the prior group to clear. But then it's never been very very busy when I've been there.

[Mark Steffey]

while playing Essex County in Manchester MA today I reminded myself that the current layout of the nines is flipped from when Ross laid it out... which means the current #11 (uphill par 3 170y) was at that time the 2nd hole.

[Jason Thurman]

How might a driveable par 4 as the second hole be looked at?

WeKoPa Saguaro's wonderful 2nd is a driveable hole. Maybe the only course I can think of with such a hole at #2. I don't recall it ever being an issue, though I have waited for the prior group to clear. But then it's never been very very busy when I've been there.

Erin Hills has a similar hole. In fact, it starts with a par 5, and then follows with a hole that will probably be drivable for a few of the pros in the 2017 US Open. Of course, Erin Hills doesn't typically get crowded and pace of play is always going to be slow when it's a 10 mile walk to navigate the course, so I can't speak much to how it influences pace of play. As a player, though, I'd like the opportunity to get a few holes under my belt before trying high risk/reward shots like what you see in the first two holes there.

Matthew Essig, I wondered about starting with a par 3 as well. Seems like you'd give the group in front a chance to get a good head start, but it might lead to an undesirably long interval between tee times. Finishing a par 3 in ten minutes shouldn't be too much to ask, but I have a feeling it frequently would be.

[Ben Voelker]

As a pace of play killer, they are quite effective

Berkshire Valley is a Morris County, NJ muni and starts with a par 4 followed by a 254/240/210 yard par 3 second.  This is just the start of a course that is a pace of play nightmare.

I don't believe much in hard and fast rules for GCA and can live with a par 3 second on a muni, but there is no sense in a 240 yard second from the men's tee.

[Mike McGuire]

IMHO the optimal routing is 4-4-5-3

[David Harshbarger]

My home course, Battenkill, starts with a 170 yd Par-3, followed by a tricky dogleg 4 then a 5.  No tee times, so you go when you go, and the group ahead is clear.  Unless there's a slow group, the course plays comfortably.  I've never experienced a backup of more than a few minutes chit-chat with a group. 

To all of you reasoning out that if you put the bottleneck first, the rest of the course's pace will stabilize, my experience says, Yes.

[Adrian_Stiff]

My home course, Battenkill, starts with a 170 yd Par-3, followed by a tricky dogleg 4 then a 5.  No tee times, so you go when you go, and the group ahead is clear.  Unless there's a slow group, the course plays comfortably.  I've never experienced a backup of more than a few minutes chit-chat with a group. 

To all of you reasoning out that if you put the bottleneck first, the rest of the course's pace will stabilize, my experience says, Yes.

A long par 3 is commercial disaster, you just restrict the amount of tee slots you have by about 25% and when working on an 8-10% Profit margin its an obvious route to bankruptcy. A long par 3 can take 11-12 minutes to play traditional tee times are 8 minute intervals. The reverse of this is of course very comfortable play so for a quieter club it can work great. I have only once done a course with a par3 start and the key was to make it play in 8 minutes, so its a wee one at 104 yards and we get through in 8 minutes, its surrounded by water, so its tee shots and putting.

[Rich Goodale]

I don't understand the maths of your argument, Adrian.  Let's assume you owned Turnberry and decided to change the 230 yard 6th to 150 (new green below the 7th (540) tee).  Is this going to increase your number of tee slots by 25%?  If so, bottle and sell this theory and you'll be so rich you can come on to GCA.com just for fun!

Rich

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