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Tom Bagley

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Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« on: May 16, 2012, 05:48:12 PM »
In reading Sean Arble's interesting review of Camberley Heath, I was struck - again- at how often Colt appeared to build one-shot 2nd holes.  As a New Englander with very little exposure to Colt courses, this is a somewhat unusual design feature.  Ross rarely included one-shot holes earlier than the 3rd hole of the round and often later.  George Thomas and others wrote about the importance of the "get-away" holes, advocating two and three shot holes to begin the round.  In tournament play, I have found one-shot 2nd holes - especially long, difficult ones -  to be an absolute pace-of-play killer.

It seems that William Flynn used one-shot 2nd holes more often than other "golden age" American designers.  And in modern times, Coore/Crenshaw and Tom Doak courses have featured par 3 2nd holes.

Is anyone aware of anything Colt may have written about the subject?  Did Colt, in fact, PREFER one-shot 2nd holes?  Have views changed as to the layout of the "get-away" holes?  Are par 3 2nd holes a good idea - or not?

PCCraig

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 05:56:08 PM »
I can think of quite a few courses with par-3 2nd holes.

#2 at Glen View Club - Flynn (ish)
#2 at Conway Farms - Fazio
#2 at The Country Club of Brookline (Composite)

My home course has a ~120 yard uphill par-3, then a ~165 yard par-3 3rd hole. I don't mind it has it's nice to start the round with a couple teed up irons/wedges versus starting the round with a few long driver-long to mid irons to start the round.
H.P.S.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 06:05:34 PM »
I read somewhere that the worst possible beginning to a golf course (for pace of play) is a par 5 opener followed by a par 3. Golfers load up on the par 5 then everyone has to wait to play the par 3. I wonder if that holds true for a long 4 followed by 3.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Matthew Rose

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 06:08:02 PM »
Ones I can think of off the top of my head...

Shinnecock
Cog Hill #4
Medinah #3
Bay Hill
TPC at Sugarloaf
TPC at Las Colinas (this week's tourney)
Commonground
Congressional
Wellshire in Denver (old Ross public); the other par-three is #9, quite a gap!




American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Mike Benham

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 06:15:35 PM »

Old Macdonald
Oly Olympic Club Ocean
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Carl Johnson

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 06:20:53 PM »
I play often at a course that opens with a short, easy par four, followed by a long, difficult par 3.  There are logjam issues.  The starter helps by letting players tee off on no. 1 only after the prior group has reached the green at one.  Still, there is often a wait at the second, but afterward there is a dogleg par four, so the tee shots can go off as soon as the group ahead rounds the corner and the course opens up.  Now, my opinion is that this is not a big deal.  Golf, for me, has become a game of taking things as they are.

My home course ("Ross 1929") has a difficult par 3 as the third hole after easy par 5 and 4 openers.  If you've got a group ahead of you, there's almost always a wait at no. 3.  It opens up immediately afterward, with shorter waits sometimes at other par 3s.  Why did Ross make the third hole a par 3?  He didn't.  The order of play was changed by the club a number of years ago.  The order of play as designed by Ross opened with three par fours, followed by a par five, with the first par 3 being the fifth hole.  What's now the difficult par 3, no. 3, was the eighth hole in Ross's design.  Lesson: don't always blame the architect.

No hole is perfect, no round is perfect (pace of play) -- why not a little leisure time early in the round?  I'm not advocating 5 and 6 hr. rounds, but the difference between 3:45 and 4:15 is not a problem for me.  Somebody wrote a book called something like "golf is not a game of perfect."  I assume he was referring to individual skills, but he could have been talking about a lot more.  Sorry, but that's my opinon.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:05:33 AM by Carl Johnson »

Will MacEwen

Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 06:22:06 PM »

Old Macdonald
Oly Olympic Club Ocean

3/4 at Bandon, 4/5 if you count Preserve.

Matthew Rose

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 06:59:04 PM »
I wonder if maybe it isn't such a bad idea after all.... it's a given there will be a wait at the first par-3 on almost any muni.... it just happens. Maybe there's something to the idea of getting that wait over with right away, before you really get into a rhythm.


American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Steve Salmen

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 07:32:15 PM »
Tom,

I've not played a lot of Ross courses so I wouldn't be able to agree or disagree.  However, the second at Royal Dornoch (Ross's original home course) is a fantastic par 3.

Perhaps he realized he couldn't reproduce a par 3 second as good as that one and didn't bother trying?

Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 07:36:22 PM »
Kingsley has a par 3 for a second hole AND it opens with a par 5...

It probably isn't a good course to understand if that routing negatively impacts pace of play given it is a private club and doesn't get a tremendous amount of play.  If it did get a lot of play, I would think the challenge of the second hole, especially the exacting nature required on the tee shot followed by the narrow green, deep bunkers, and steep fall-offs would have more of an impact on pace than anything - much more so than the fact that it follows a par 5.

As for having a one-shotter so early in the round, I actually like it (this probably has something to do with how much I like the second) - it is a short hole and really gets your attention fast.  The hole benefits in my mind because of the vista one is presented after climbing out of the bowl that is #1 green and after the short walk to #2 tee.

Given the severity of #2 though, I would guess some people say that Kingsley opens with back-to-back par 5's...

Mark Steffey

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2012, 07:46:18 PM »
played Carnegie Abbey in rhody yesterday... starts par 5 then par 3.

some of the most visually appealing bunkers i've ever seen.  perfectly manicured for the average of 10 rounds a day of those who get to see it!

Tom Bagley

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2012, 08:02:09 PM »
There are certainly many courses with par 3 2nd holes.  However, I am curious as to what architects have said or written about it, and in particular whether Colt might have seen it as a positive.  Perhaps some of our European friends will comment on this later.

BTW, Whitinsville is one Ross that starts with a 5 followed by a 3.  It's certainly rare in the Ross portfolio, but considering the small scale of the property and the road that bisects it, the routing was inspired.   

Bill_McBride

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2012, 08:10:44 PM »
This is an interesting technical question about routing.   The worst start I've ever seen empirically - what happened on the ground - is Sonoma Golf Club.  A very easy short par 4, followed by a par 5.  Typically you would walk onto the 2nd tee to find two groups waiting to hit.   

Tom Bagley

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2012, 08:37:02 PM »
Wahconah CC in the Berkshires has nine holes by Wayne Stiles and nine holes by Geoff Cornish.  The second hole as currently played is a 220 yard par 3.  It's a fun course to play but I can recall very long waits (two groups on the 2nd tee) when playing in the Little Brown Jug - a good local amateur tournament.

J_ Crisham

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2012, 09:24:58 PM »
Works well at Flossmoor, The Dunes Club, and Medinah 3 here in Chicago. As I recall isn't #2 at Blue Mound the Biaritz hole? An excellent hole none the less.

Phil McDade

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 10:30:09 PM »
Works well at Flossmoor, The Dunes Club, and Medinah 3 here in Chicago. As I recall isn't #2 at Blue Mound the Biaritz hole? An excellent hole none the less.

Jack:

It's the 3rd hole at Blue Mound, following two par 4s that open the front nine.


Greg Holland

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 10:40:13 PM »
played Carnegie Abbey in rhody yesterday... starts par 5 then par 3.

Donald Steel's Primland course also has a par 3 second hole.  Interestingly, its first 6 holes are par 5, par 3, par 5, par 3, par 4, par 5.   

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 11:12:05 PM »
Mike Young's Cateechee Golf Club course has an interesting beginning:  par 5, par 3, par 5, par 4, par 5, par 3

The opening hole was originally a par 4, but was remodeled into a par 5 when the club wanted to up the distance of the course. It's the only course I've ever played with only one par 4 in the first six holes!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

CJ Carder

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2012, 11:15:46 PM »
No love for the 2nd at Royal Dornoch?

mike_beene

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2012, 11:17:41 PM »
This makes an opening par 3  sound like the best way to flow a course? It works at Lythim and St Ann's

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2012, 02:57:27 AM »
Bad idea. You want the first short hole as far as you can into the round, but if you build around the land rather than a set of rules, if the 2nd hole fits short then so be it.
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Sean_A

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2012, 03:36:01 AM »
Bad idea. You want the first short hole as far as you can into the round, but if you build around the land rather than a set of rules, if the 2nd hole fits short then so be it.

Adrian is a smart guy.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2012, 06:02:16 AM »
Tom,

I've not played a lot of Ross courses so I wouldn't be able to agree or disagree.  However, the second at Royal Dornoch (Ross's original home course) is a fantastic par 3.

Perhaps he realized he couldn't reproduce a par 3 second as good as that one and didn't bother trying?

Hi Steve

When Ross left Dornoch for America (1899) the 2nd was a short par 4 (240) which played from a tee hard by the boundary fence on the big hump to the left hand side of the first fairway (then a hole of 220 yards), to a green to the right of the present one (i.e. on the flat area adjacent to the whins).  So, your theory doesn't quite fit the facts....  However, the facts seem to indicate that Ross was brought over from Pinehurst in 1921 to help John Sutherland rebuild the 1st and 2nd to what they are today.  Apparently Ross wanted the 2nd green to be a punchbowl, probably where today's right hand whins lie, but was overruled by Sutherland, who laid out the volcano we know and love today.  You can, however, give Ross credit for today's 1st (which is highly underrated IMHO).  Also, getting to the point of this thread.....

.......today's 2nd IS a bottleneck on the course, particularly during competitions, and probably would be much less so if Ross's punchbowl had been chosen as the green site.  However, who would exchange in the routing a truly great hole which can be a (minor) bottleneck for a probably average-good hole (think of the 2nd being like today's 13th at Dornoch)?

Cheers

Rich

PS--any chance of getting together in Dornoch this year?
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

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Leo Barber

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2012, 06:25:15 AM »
Bad idea. You want the first short hole as far as you can into the round, but if you build around the land rather than a set of rules, if the 2nd hole fits short then so be it.

Adrian is a smart guy.

Ciao

Times 2.  Russells one shot 2nd at Paraparaumu impedes the initial flow of play, but he used the land to great effect.  Leave the formula courses for the others that dont have the great land and can choose to manufacture their desired result

Ben Jarvis

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Re: Par 3 2nd holes - good idea or not?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2012, 06:52:41 AM »
If it works out that the land dictates so, and this is the best possible routing, then by all means, let the 2nd be a par-3.

However, it certainly doesn't help with pace of play, from my experience.

One of the best flowing starts i've experienced that comes first to mind is Royal Melbourne West. #1 is a medium to long 4, with a big wide fairway and no trouble surrounding the green. #2 is a short par-5, again with ample room off the tee and approach shot. #3 is a short-4, while #4 is another par-5. The first par-3 comes at #5.

At RMW, I'm yet to experience a delay in play caused by course routing.

These days, many tournaments and club competitions are played over a two-tee start. The same issue could be said for the 11th hole.


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