[Keith Phillips]

In The Confidential Guide, Tom Doak writes But water comes into play on 27 shots at Old Marsh, which is not my favorite concept at all.  I assume by this Tom means '27 of 36 full shots' (assuming Old Marsh is Par-72) - I've played Old Marsh once and absolutely loved it, but having water be a factor 75% of the time might get old.   I have been researching courses in Florida and South Carolina for a few years, in hopes of finding the ideal winter / retirement retreat, and obviously water is a major factor in the architecture of many of the more highly-regarded clubs in the South - in reviewing aerials of Pine Tree and Long Cove, for instance, water appears to come into play very frequently, and as an 'erratic 12 handicap', I may prefer a more forgiving course.  Water seems rarely in play at Yeaman's Hall, by contrast.  Curious if others have a view on this issue, or thoughts on courses where water may be particularly intrusive.

[John Shimp]

Keith,
You get used to water at some level.  Better than OB i guess.   Chechessee is low on water and would fit a retrement area.  So is bulls bay but not a retirement community although plenty of places to live nearby that fit the bill.  Yeamans is low on water as you say (like none unless you top it off the tee on 7) but isnt a retirement place at all.   debordieu is nice up the coast.  Some water great retirement option but not just retirees. 

[mike_beene]

On airliners.net they would say it is too much if you have to get up more than once between DFW and DCA.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Keith I think it's important to note the type of water hazard and how the hazard is presented.  If the water we are talking about is the ocean or a large body of water...it can be in play on every shot and I'd be just fine (I'm a sucker for the ocean).  At the opposite end of the spectrum a single round pond that looks completely artificial and is out of place/character can have a dramatic negative impact on a course.  So like most things it's really tough to break the question down to a set number or percentage, it’s more important how the hazard is implemented and or constructed.

So yeah I'm copping out and not answering the question directly.

[Dan King]

My preference -- I prefer about the same amount of water on a golf course as I like in a glass of Scotch -- unless it is ocean water.

Cheers,
Dan King

Splosh! One of the finest sights in the world: the other man's ball dropping in the water - preferably so that he can see it but cannot quite reach it and has therefore to leave it there, thus rendering himself so mad that he loses the next hole as well.
 --Henry Longhurst

[Tom_Doak]

I would agree with Dan's principle that a shot where the ocean in play doesn't count against a course in the "too much water" department.

The bottom line for me is that I enjoy walking off the 18th green with the same ball I used off the first tee.  Water can come into play on several holes, as long as it isn't so much in your face that you are guaranteed to lose a couple of balls in a typical round.  And a few of my favorite courses have no water at all.

[Tim Gavrich]

Let me second the recommendation of Debordieu--I played in the US Open Local Qualifier last week and was very impressed.  Low-key but whimsical Dye course.  Water comes into play on the last two holes in a significant way, but only appears here and there the other 16 holes, which is good.

I think the amount of water tolerable is directly proportion to the width of the holes on which the water appears.  It comes into play quite often at True Blue, but those fairways and greens are big enough that you can play away from the water if you want.

27 out of 36 "full" shots involving water does sound like a lot, but is there good width at Old Marsh?  If so, that wouldn't bother me.  Hazards really get tiresome if they stop toying with and start hamstringing the player.

[Joe Leenheer]

I would agree with Dan's principle that a shot where the ocean in play doesn't count against a course in the "too much water" department.

The bottom line for me is that I enjoy walking off the 18th green with the same ball I used off the first tee.  Water can come into play on several holes, as long as it isn't so much in your face that you are guaranteed to lose a couple of balls in a typical round.  And a few of my favorite courses have no water at all.

I can get you a deal on some "previously owned" pinnacles....

I tend to dislike water hazards when they force my hand or limit my options.  I prefer hazards that are natural, penalize a poor shot, but do not overly complicate a hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Keith,

I think width has a lot to do with how water is introduced at the flanks.

At the green end, one would have to consider the length of the approach.

At ANGC I think they got it right on # 12, 13 and 15, since the approaches are relatively benign, whereas, at # 11 the approach to the green is very difficult.  But, even there, the "bailout" width is significant.

# 16 gives you plenty of bailout room, but with a more penal result.

ANGC has five of their back nine holes with water.
Is it too much ?  I don't think so.

Pebble Beach has six of their front nine holes with water.
Is it too much ?  I don't think so.

I think you have to consider the topography, width, approach length and other factors when introducing water in abundance.

At some courses, mostly in Florida, water seems to be an overused hazard until you realize that they excavated the water features to get the soil for the fairways, so it seems to be a developmental by product, undesirable to most, unless ample width and non-heroic carries are present.

[Will Peterson]

I played Old Marsh in the FL Mid-Am last year. 

There is a lot of water, but there is also some room.  If the wind blows or you are not playing well, it can become an issue.  I would also think that it could be quite difficult for a higher handicap player (I could be wrong as I did not pay much attention to forward tees).

*when I say water, it might be water or a marsh

1 - Shorter par 4 with water all down the left, but really shouldn't be in play.  There is also a bunker on the left to keep some balls from bouning into the hazard.

2 - Par 5 with tee shot over water and water / OB on both sides, but probably 100 yards of room.  I don't recall water on the second or near the green.

3 - mid/long par 3 with water all down the left.  Definitely in play.

4 - Medium par 4 with OB marsh left and water near the green.  There is a forced carry to the fairway, but none of the hazards are really in play.

5 - Short par 4 with water all down the right and around the green.  I really didn't like this hole.  There is a huge mound infront of the green, and there is no play you can hit your drive to be able to see any part of the green.  They had to have a spotter by the green because so many balls would land on the green and roll into the water.  You had no idea where you were hitting it.

6 - Long par 4 with water all down the right and OB left.  Really tough hole, and the water is in play on every shot.

7 - Medium par 5 with a carry over water to a wide fairway and water all down the right.  Lots of room, but water is in play if you go for it in 2 or there is a back right pin.

8 - short par 3 with water on the right.  I don't recall it really being in play.

9 - Long par 4 with a carry to the fairway and water all the way up the left.  Second shot is a brute, and the green sits next to the water.

10 - Short par 4 with water left and right, but not really in play.  Less than driver and a wedge.  There is a tree in the fairway that makes you flirt with the water on the left for a good look at some pins.

11 - Medium par 4 with a long carry to fairway.  You can't really see the fairway from the tee, and just blast it out over a marsh.  In reality, there is a lot of room.

12 - Short par 5 with water on both sides.  Very much in play on your second/third.

13 - Med/Long par 4 with OB left and water right.  A very tight, and uncomfortable drive.  I found it one of the hardest holes on the course. 

14 - Med/long par 3 with water on both sides, but only really in play on the left.

15 - Long or Short par 4.  There are two tees on this hole.  From the back, it is a long par 4 with a long carry to the fairway.  From the other tee, there really isn't any water on the hole.

16 - med par 3 with water to the left.  Not too much in play, but a few will find it.

17 - par 5.  Water on both sides off the tee shot, water on both sides of the lay-up althought there is a lot of room left, but you need to have hit a good drive and hit a lot of club to get to that area.  I think there is some water right of the green, but not really a factor.

18 - Long par 4 with OB left and water right and a carry to the fairway.  Basically the mirror of 9, and the water is really in play near the green.  Tough hole, especially when playing into the wind.

I liked Old Marsh, and on my first play didn't really notice a lot of the water.  During the event, I didn't play well, and it was constantly in my mind.  Watching some of the members on the range during my  practice round, it bet they sell a lot of balls in the shop.  I have played a lot of other courses in FL that have less water, but it feels more prominent.  Old Marsh is a marsh, and the area around the holes that doesn't have homes is just marsh.  I only felt pinched a couple of times (7 and 13), but twice in a round is fine with me.  I find it a place that I would like to visit every once in a while, but it could be brutal to play everyday.  You really can't get away with anything on a bad day.

[Matthew Rose]

I like moderation. I like a little here and there. I also like it for aesthetic value. I think if you give the high handicap plenty of room to avoid it, I have no problem with it.

I agree that having one hole can be sort of awkward.... like #18 at Torrey, for example.

I think having it on 10+ holes is excessive.

Augusta has five water holes.... I believe Pine Valley does too, if you count the tee shot on #15. That seems like a good number.

[David_Elvins]

I think one of the problems with courses with too much water is that they don't use the water aggressively enough.  Water can be such an intimidating hazard that I think that when it is used it really should be thrust into the line of play and the golfers mind.  Of course, if you do this on every hole the course becomes a slog and too often architects push the water hazards back from the playing lines if there is a lot of water on a course.  This rarely provides a challenge for the better player, and makes the water nothing more than a punishment for a bad shot, most likely played by a bad player.

[jeffwarne]

I think one of the problems with courses with too much water is that they don't use the water aggressively enough.  Water can be such an intimidating hazard that I think that when it is used it really should be thrust into the line of play and the golfers mind.  Of course, if you do this on every hole the course becomes a slog and too often architects push the water hazards back from the playing lines if there is a lot of water on a course.  This rarely provides a challenge for the better player, and makes the water nothing more than a punishment for a bad shot, most likely played by a bad player.

+1

just like bunkers
use it less often,but more prominently.

"The worst way to discover a hazard is after a shot where one did not consider the hazard"

could be my new tagline...

[Lester George]

Keith,

Check out Saltzmans review on Country Club of Florida.  Using the formuls above, water comes into play on 10 shots.

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

While I did write the paragraph above on Old Marsh, I think it's wrong to have any formula for how much water a course has.

Royal Melbourne has no water ... and anybody who thinks it needs some is an idiot.  Augusta has several good ones, and I would never say it should have less.  So, to say that a course should have one water hole or four or whatever is just misguided.  We don't need more rules of thumb about golf course design.  We need fewer.

[Lester George]

Just to clarify, my comments were specific to the rationale above.  Counting how many shots out of 36. 

In no way do I think there should be a "formula" for water.  I feel as Tom, if you don't have it naturally, why create it.  I also agree that the "rules of thumb" are emant to be violated when considering the merits of the holes/course. 

Ballyhack has no impoundments.

Lester

[Patrick_Mucci]

Keith,

As some have alluded to, it's a site specific exercise.

Look at the way the Peckman Creek was used at MCC.

[cary lichtenstein]

Too much water on Old March and The Players Club

[Howard Riefs]

I regularly play a muni, a Langford design tinkered with over the decades, that has water in play on 16 of 18 holes.

That's my benchmark for "too much water."

[Keith Phillips]

A lot of good points above - I certainly prefer water to OB, and agree that water can add tremendously to the strategy (Augusta) and beauty (Pebble, Loch Lomond) of the course without being at all penal.  I guess upon reflection it's the persistent later water hazard concept at some (mostly southern?) courses that I dislike - I think Will Peterson' comments that "....I didn't play well, and it was constantly on my mind....you really can't get away with anything on a bad day" sum up my perspective that having too much water (or OB or dense fescue/bush) becomes over-bearing and can ruin the golfing experience.

I totally subscribe to Tom's point of enjoying walking off the 18th green with the same ball he started with - true story - I took my father-in-law to Scotland several years back - as a straight hitting 25-handicapper he played the same ball at Crail, Kingsbarns, Royal Troon, Prestwick, Turnberry and Royal Troon, before losing it left in the water on the cape 18th hole at Loch Lomond hours before heading to the airport.  A lot of water in and around those courses, but it's rarely penal, and he had a great time!

[Joe Stansell]

I don't know if this a "too much water" or "too little water" comment, but up here in the Pacific Northwest, we have a larger number of courses that are not only tree-lined, they are thick-forest lined. Balls that miss the fairway are as often lost as not. This effectively means that a large number of our shot situations up here face "OB" right and "OB" left -- as a lost ball comes at the same cost of stroke plus distance. Under this scenario, I actually prefer seeing the "red" stakes along the perimeter of these holes because, at least then, you can drop laterally with only a one stroke penalty. So, I ask, does this mean we have "too little water" rather than "too much water" (that is, apart from our rain)?

[Keith Phillips]

Lost balls are the ultimate penalty, and you are right dense forest can be worse that water - in the first year or two of Bayonne's existence the fescue was so thick and dense that balls were routinely lost within yards of the fairway, so again it doesn't have to be water - my home course is tough around the greens but very forgiving off the tees, so maybe I'm just spoiled - my game would probably benefit from the discipline of being forced to hit straighter!

[Matthew Essig]

I don't know if this a "too much water" or "too little water" comment, but up here in the Pacific Northwest, we have a larger number of courses that are not only tree-lined, they are thick-forest lined. Balls that miss the fairway are as often lost as not. This effectively means that a large number of our shot situations up here face "OB" right and "OB" left -- as a lost ball comes at the same cost of stroke plus distance. Under this scenario, I actually prefer seeing the "red" stakes along the perimeter of these holes because, at least then, you can drop laterally with only a one stroke penalty. So, I ask, does this mean we have "too little water" rather than "too much water" (that is, apart from our rain)?

+1
The fairways aren't just tree-lined with a row of trees but forest-lined, where if you miss the fairway, you are clambering through the forest to find it. I feel relieved to be able to play courses in different places where if I miss the fairway I know that I may find it.

[Alex Miller]

How much mater is too much water?


Ummm... any more than what was on the site pre-construction?


Exceptions that I've seen: the controversial lake at Bandon Trails, which I was shocked to find was entirely man-made.

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