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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2012, 10:44:54 AM »
Shivas,

Fair enough....as a logical follow on.

Are you for or against limitations of the size of the ball?
Head Size limitations for drivers?
COR limitation for drivers?
Mallot style putting?
Length of shaft restrictions?

Because all of those are also in the spirit of "tinkering"....
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 10:47:00 AM by Kalen Braley »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2012, 10:50:02 AM »
Sadly enough the short putter shown is now illegal.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2012, 10:52:15 AM »
As a long putter user for the past 17 years, I find many of your views regarding this issue quite humorous. :) I just don't see it as a plague on the game like you do.  I think the USGA & R&A should be much more concerned about 15 year olds driving it 325 yds as opposed to what they putt with.  I still have yet to see any concise info or study that proves the long putter to be such a huge advantage.  Until I do, I'll continue to think that way and use what I want to get the ball in the hole. If it's banned, I'll be very surprised.

It's not that difficult to use a long putter without actually anchoring it to your body. I can hold mine in only my hands without any part of the putter/grip touching by body and still make what you'd think is an achored stroke.  What do you do then?





fwiw, in the April 30 2012 issue of Golf World, there was a piece in the Bunker section titled "Discussions to ban anchoring continue" that basically said it was a fait accompli that it will be banned, and that the R&A are currently working on a number of different possible 'wordings' for the ruling.   In the article Peter Dawson says that "discussions with the USGA on the matter....proceeding 'at quite an intense pace'".   So, it's coming.

As for the second bit - don't mean to sound like a smart aleck, but if the putter is not anchored to your body, it's not really an anchored stroke, is it?  Do you mean that you are just choking down on a really long putter but not sticking the end against your belly?

I believe I read something that contradicted that article soon after.  I think someone from the USGA was cited saying he was surprised to read those comments from the R&A.

As for your second question.  I use a 49" long putter with a 2 piece grip that's pretty standard. I use what would would be a normal setup with the long putter. I grip the top grip with my left hand  and my left thumb over the very top of the grip, my right hand is extended down to the lower grip. I place my left hand (top of club) just left of my sternum.  Technically NO part of the club is touching anything other than my hands.  My left hand rests against my chest but the grip doesn't.  Is this anchoring?  With belly putters the grip rests against the body.  With the long putter it's quite easy to make what you might call an anchored stroke without any part of the grip touching anything but your hands.  This is why the ruling bodies are going to have a very tough time with this issue.  I'm curious to see what they come up with.  The long putter has been around at the top level of golf for 30 years.  I think a ban on them at this point is beyond stupid.

The USGA & R&A have let technology run wild over the last 20 years.  Persimmon drivers were smaller than a lot of todays 3/5 woods. Graphite has replaced steel in 99% of all "woods".  Good players can now play what was considered a "distance" ball in the past, with a cover better than the old balata.  Where does it end?  With a ban on a certain style of putting?  It's absurd.

Here's a quote from an artice from 1989...

"Some players, including Arnold Palmer, Gary Player and two-time defending Showdown Classic champion Miller Barber, don't like it. "I think it looks like hell," said Barber. He also wonders if it's a true golf shot since one hand is held against the body and the putter practically swings itself through the ball.

That's what some officials of golf are wondering also. At last month's Senior Open, P.J. Boatright, the director of rules and competition for the United States Golf Association, said, "It isn't golf. It goes against the tradition of the game." He said if a rule change were to be made, it wouldn't take effect until 1991 and some players might be allowed to keep doing it under a grandfather clause."

And another from the USGA's Mike Davis last year...

"USGA Executive Director Mike Davis said the argument against the long putter has been made for decades and that his organization and the R&A will continue to monitor the situation.

"We don't want to react to trends. There is no data to suggest this method of making the stroke is causing harm to the game or giving anyone an advantage," Davis said. "We readily admit it does help some players, but do we take it out of the game for the masses?"



« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 11:03:40 AM by JSlonis »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2012, 10:55:52 AM »
All this hubbub about the long putter, is either a media driven rant, to become part of the story, or, it's a red herring. A tail wagging the dog.

I know one poster will agree with me in stating that it's the governing bodies that have refused to govern properly BECAUSE they have failed to be proactive on defining the limitations of I&B.

They have successfully turned a great sport into a game. A game with a core of participants who blindly follow the whims of the day, and, then whine when their perfectly struck shot doesn't do what they wanted it to do, once it returns to solid ground. Guess what? Thats not a perfectly struck shot, then.

What a pity...
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2012, 10:59:20 AM »
Once greens get fast enough you will see players using a 19 inch putter while putting from their knees.  I don't think I would ever miss another three footer.  I just need some help getting up.

bstark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2012, 11:25:13 AM »
If belly putters are so "unfair" how come my handicap has gone UP since I switched last year....?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2012, 12:16:10 PM »
If belly putters are so "unfair" how come my handicap has gone UP since I switched last year....?

Maybe Cause:

You hit your driver crooked?
Or you shank your irons?
Blade your wedges?

My handicap has been going up for half a year now and I haven't switched out any clubs....

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2012, 12:17:51 PM »
I posted this about 4 years ago.  I thought it apropos:

A photo:

I've been saying for years that equipment tinkering and experimentation is, and always has been, part of the fabric and spirit of the game.  Certain neanderthals around here   ;) just can't seem to understand that since the very first day the first shepherd grabbed a stick to whack a sheep turd, a different shepherd went scrambling for a stronger stick and a more solid turd!

And it's gone on ever since.

There is nothing outside the spirit of the game in any of this.  It is and always has been part of the game.

So lay off the long putter!  It, just like every club in every one of our bags today, is the logical progeny of this experimentation -- the great, great grandchild of your much-beloved Golden Age.


Absolutely true. We are tinkerers. We are tool users. We are also goal-oriented. Put those two things together, and it's easy to understand why golfers look for ways to get the ball in the hole in a more expedient manner.

Give it up you Luddites!!! :-)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2012, 12:19:36 PM »
Shivas,

Fair enough....as a logical follow on.

Are you for or against limitations of the size of the ball?
Head Size limitations for drivers?
COR limitation for drivers?
Mallot style putting?
Length of shaft restrictions?

Because all of those are also in the spirit of "tinkering"....

I asked this question of Shivas, but so far no response.

Anyone else want to take a stab at why one kind of "tinkering" is seemingly OK, yet other types aren't?

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2012, 12:24:25 PM »
Shivas,

Fair enough....as a logical follow on.

Are you for or against limitations of the size of the ball?
Head Size limitations for drivers?
COR limitation for drivers?
Mallot style putting?
Length of shaft restrictions?

Because all of those are also in the spirit of "tinkering"....

I asked this question of Shivas, but so far no response.

Anyone else want to take a stab at why one kind of "tinkering" is seemingly OK, yet other types aren't?

I'm for limitations on the golf ball and anything else that allows it to go much farther than today, but that is a PRACTICAL issue for me. We can't keep allowing golf courses to get longer and longer, as they just become too expensive, and the game takes too long when 12 handicaps want to test themselves from "the tips" at 9,000 yards! LOL!!!

I also believe that staddling the line is not something that should be allowed in a normal stroke. Everything else (off the top of my head) is fair game as far as I'm concerned....

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2012, 12:28:22 PM »
Dave,

Thanks for taking a stab at it.  Sounds like you're against everything on that list then because they all boil down to two things...

More length and mallot style putting.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2012, 12:33:58 PM »
...
I also believe that staddling the line is not something that should be allowed in a normal stroke. Everything else (off the top of my head) is fair game as far as I'm concerned....

I can imagine a ball coming to rest on the edge of a hazard where the only stance a player could take and have any semblance of balance would be to straddle the line. I don't know if such a stance is outlawed other than on the putting green, but it seems you would outlaw it. If it is outlawed and a player took such a stance, would anyone notice he did something against the rules?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2012, 10:06:31 AM »
If reports are correct, Mike Davis and the usga rules comm. are actually gonna do something.

I find that hard to believe, but, if they do...?

Are they reacting to media pressure? or, What?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2012, 10:11:35 AM »
Adam, according to the story I saw yesterday, it sounds like a ban on anchoring is imminent. Mike Davis himself said that there's no statistical evidence suggesting the long putters give any sort of advantage over more traditional putters. In his words, they're banning it because they don't like the way it looks.

With that in mind, I don't see how it can be anything but a caving to pressure from uninformed sources, namely the media and whiny players.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2012, 10:16:48 AM »
I would have possibly quit the game without the alternative of a belly putter.
I had the yips so bad I began to shank putts.

Be careful with what you want - the results might hurt the game (which is not professional play)
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2012, 10:20:14 AM »
If there's no evidence it helps, then why would so many use it?  How can they even get clean statistical data?  You don't have concurrent data on how guys who are using it would do without it.  My bet is several of them drop significantly down the money list, if not off tour altogether.  Good riddance.

http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2012/10/tiger-woods-favors-belly-putter-ban.html#

http://espn.go.com/golf/pgachampionship12/story/_/id/8247206/2012-pga-championship-webb-simpson-bristles-talk-belly-putter-ban



Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2012, 10:22:44 AM »

What a waste.. the USGA let the ball get away from them and now that want to make themselves look relevent some how. More people will just cheat if they ban it.


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2012, 10:23:14 AM »
I bet we will see a lot of this if the ban happens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcWUH19xcjA&feature=related


Jeff Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2012, 11:04:40 AM »
Adam, according to the story I saw yesterday, it sounds like a ban on anchoring is imminent. Mike Davis himself said that there's no statistical evidence suggesting the long putters give any sort of advantage over more traditional putters. In his words, they're banning it because they don't like the way it looks.

With that in mind, I don't see how it can be anything but a caving to pressure from uninformed sources, namely the media and whiny players.

If a ruling is handed down banning the long and belly putters I would hope that the rationale is something more than they don't like the way it looks.  If there is no evidence that these putters actually helps then banning it for the sake of looks seems rather odd.  My feeling is if it truly is an advantage over the rest of the field then why doesn’t the rest of the field also use them?  I can’t imagine professional golfers are purposefully leaving strokes and money on the table because of principle.

I tried a long putter for a brief period several years ago and just didn’t make enough putts with it to justify keeping it in the bag.  I found it provided no advantage to me and rather found it more difficult to use especially on touch putts.  If someone has success with it then I would argue that they have a developed skill that they are able to do better than others and should be allowed to continue to use that skill.  I now use a conventional length putter but use a claw grip.  Are they going to ban claw grips because they don’t “like the way it looks”?
So bad it's good!

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2012, 11:09:31 AM »
I'd rather see a rule of no more than 56 degrees of loft in the bag.  Totally doable, could happen overnight without having to manufacture anything, and would make the game MUCH more interesting IMO.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2012, 11:29:33 AM »
The man that tackled "Bird Man" at this years open, could surely tackle bigger fish, than this anchoring red herring.

Length of club is the only rule change that could come close, to adhering to the way I understand the rules.  

It's a pity, one of our old posters, was promoted to the level of where he would be a fool to discuss and opine. (not a pity that he was promoted, that he shouldn't discuss, for livelihood survival reasons)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 11:32:24 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2012, 11:33:28 AM »
"The don't like the way it looks" excuse is very lame! How come this excuse is overlooked when it comes to the actual putter models themselves?

The very first sentence in the Rules of Golf regarding clubheads states, "The clubhead must be generally plain in shape" Huh? Apparently when they approve designs they don't pay attention to this stipulation at all. The last time I was in the putter section of a golf store, I didn't see too many new models that were "plain in shape".





There's a reason that everyone on tour hasn't switched and it's pretty simple really. Long/belly putters can make mediocre/poor (Short) putter users better, but if a guy can already putt well with the shorty, switching to a long model will not make him improve on top of that.



« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 11:46:41 AM by JSlonis »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2012, 11:47:34 AM »

There's a reason that everyone on tour hasn't switched and it's pretty simple really. Long/belly putters can make mediocre/poor (Short) putter users better, but if a guy can putt well with the shorty, switching to a long model will not make him improve on top of that.


Bingo.  Sounds like reason enough to me.  I can't believe all you guys are whining about this.  Isn't making putts inside 10 feet what separates Tour players from thousands of guys who can bomb and gouge it with the best of 'em  (not to mention money club match players)?  This is at the heart of the game IMHO.  Yes, most of us would like them to do a lot more, but it's a small step in the right direction....  Paging Shivas.  Shivas, White Courtesy Phone....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2012, 12:47:32 PM »
If they never removed all slope and character from the greens, long putters would be much less popular.

In a way, it's rise is directly related to the ego driven speed race.

 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Totally OT. Ban it
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2012, 01:53:57 PM »
Adam,

That's an interesting theory, one I tend to agree with.

I think long putts over contoured putting surfaces are a challenge for the long putter, whose fortay seems to be short to medium length putts

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