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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #100 on: May 15, 2012, 10:25:41 AM »
Brent

I can only assume that laser heads use the device to help with determining distance.  You may think that subtlety in design isn't worth preserving, but I would disagree.  To that end, I would prefer if laser heads didn't use the devices because I think subtlety has slowly been eroded by excessive information.  I am not going to pretend that there are one, two, three or whatever number of shots that have been less than what they could have been due to excessive info because I can largely avoid the problem to a degree which I find a reasonable compromise, but I do think techno golf slowly erodes at shades of grey in design.  As a fan of classic architecture and much less of modern architecture, I can point to subtlety as a one reason for my preference.  I accept this isn't the same for everybody but I do lament what we are losing by inches which took 75 years of evolution to perfect.  More is the pity for future generations.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #101 on: May 15, 2012, 10:38:10 AM »
Sean,

I'm of two minds on this.  On the one hand, to pretend one can live in a bubble and ignore the march of information and technology is a bit silly.  On the other hand, this simply puts in relief why proper F&F conditions are so desirable.  If the only way to get a reasonable birdie or par chance is to run your ball onto the green and/or use some of the ground features to get your shot moving on the proper line to the hole, exact yardage is of little help.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #102 on: May 15, 2012, 10:40:19 AM »
Brent

I can only assume that laser heads use the device to help with determining distance.  You may think that subtlety in design isn't worth preserving, but I would disagree.  To that end, I would prefer if laser heads didn't use the devices because I think subtlety has slowly been eroded by excessive information.  I am not going to pretend that there are one, two, three or whatever number of shots that have been less than what they could have been due to excessive info because I can largely avoid the problem to a degree which I find a reasonable compromise, but I do think techno golf slowly erodes at shades of grey in design.  As a fan of classic architecture and much less of modern architecture, I can point to subtlety as a one reason for my preference.  I accept this isn't the same for everybody but I do lament what we are losing by inches which took 75 years of evolution to perfect.  More is the pity for future generations.

Ciao   

Interesting observation.  Perhaps subtleby is the bain of the robo-golfer's existence.  I think back to a round 15 years ago with my company's CEO.  He had a beautiful swing, honed at some expensive executive golf camp.  However he inevitably stumbed when it wasn't blatantly obvious where to play a shot.  On the rare occasion he mishit a ball, a hilarious (to me, not him) debacle inevitably ensued as he had the recovery skills of a 36 handicapper.   He could dial in golf shots, but he wasn't a golfer.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Brent Hutto

Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #103 on: May 15, 2012, 10:42:40 AM »
I guess over the last few years my idea of subtlety (or frankly, of architectural merit altogether) has been paired down to one element. That being contours and their effect on the golf ball as it lands, bounces or rolls.

All the MacKenzie-groupie stuff about camouflage and deception just fails the silliness test. Anything that offers a totally different experience to the golfer who has never played the hole before and to the guy who has played it a handful of times is a gimmick. I'm all for a good gimmick now and then but it's not what makes an interesting course interesting or a subtle course subtle.

Now maybe I'm just in no-mans-land with my own golf game. I'm not precise or repeatable enough in my execution that knowing an exact distance means I will hit an exact spot and make the shot boring. But I do have just (barely) enough ability to occasionally hit a shot exactly how I intend to hit it. And I want to be able to attempt something on those occasions without pulling off exactly the shot I wanted to hit and have it land 40 feet away on an entirely different bit of contouring because my distance guess was faulty. That seems like a wasted opportunity to me.

It boils down to this. I already know that I can not look at a ground feature 140 or 180 yards away from me and guess the distance within plus or minus five yards more than once in a great while. There's no discovery to it, it's a settled fact. I can't get distances correct at that sort of range. But a very much up in the air question is whether right now, with one attempt, I can manage to hit a low shot that travels somewhere between 142-146 yards, takes a soft kick forward up onto the back tier and then stops pin high. So I spend my limited number of golf holes per lifetime asking and answering the question that's most interesting to me (can I choose the right shot and execute it) rather than the question that's boring to me (how far is it to the base of that upslope crossing the green).

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #104 on: May 15, 2012, 11:06:59 AM »
Brent

Fair enough, we have to agree to disagree because I think the visual deception, harmony, disharmony aspect of design is important and worth preserving. 

Jud

Exactly, f&f mitigates information just as wind does.

Bogey

I wouldn't want to say guys are robo golfers because they like info and technology.  For the few who do think about this sort of stuff, I am not sure they see the big picture of gca and how hard it is for archies to build something without slapping the golfer upside the head with obvious visuals.  For sure, the decline of "feel" for lack of a better word is on the decline because of a lack of consumer demand, but to me gca is more than just about making a golfer comfortable from tee to green.  These days the big thing to do is build wild greens to upset the comfort level.  I want archies to have a bigger bag of tricks.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #105 on: May 15, 2012, 11:59:14 AM »

There is an inherent weakness in the game of those who need to rely on distance aids, worst still those most selfish of player The Pacers.

To say by using aids that it allows you open to new discoveries, is to this guy stating that you never understood the course or for that matter the GCA in the first place.

Freeing your game of all pointless aids, allows the golfer to concentrate upon his game, the Hole and the combination of weather, environment, GCA with design intent. The freedom to check out the course uncluttered by the need for a distance fix gives the golfer clarity as to his intentions (at times altered due to lack of skill on the pervious shot). The golfer is then free to continuing trying to understand the design constraints without that additional burden of yardage. The real sadness is this is the way the game was and in some areas is still played, be it in groups or by a lone golfer.

This drive to be perfect, to be the best, to constantly improve is a reflection of one’s working life. Leave work associated crap at the office, play with a free and open mind will soon see the golfer relaxed and able to rise to the challenge of the course and its environment.

Why can’t people accept that distance - yardage is a new thing, that distance was not measured as we do it today, that it was seen as helping in an unfair way a suspect golfer only bent on winning. Its not about winning, if you do, it’s a bonus, but it’s the way you play that counts, the ability to take the rough with the smooth, it’s the taking part that really matters. The real winners are not always the winners but those who entered for the fun, the enjoyment, the sportsmanship and the general thrill of being there. Remember not everyone can win, without the mass of ‘also ran’ our sports would be a dreary and boring spectacles of just the cream of the elite.

We are still talking of distance aids but how many have ever really tested if they work, that indeed you need the measured unit to play well? I surmise none, that you did what the R&A do followed the lead of others accepted the bull and purchased the product without fully testing your own ability to judge the measured unit. Having said that why are so many bent on using aids when clearly they are aids and assist the golfer. Why has there not been a moral outcry? Has winning or the need to win become more important that our own self-respect, clearly in many case it has as is fiercely defended with the word ‘they are legal’. Perhaps that proves just how badly handled the game of golf has been while the R&A have been in charge. If the R&A see no duty of care then why shouldn’t those that stoop to these measures not also do so. But then are we not golfers with a moral code of our own?

Melvyn     

Brent Hutto

Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #106 on: May 15, 2012, 12:03:56 PM »
I've been alive for 50 years. Players have been pacing off yardages longer than 50 years. That's about the limit of my time horizon. I'm not going to hit a rock with a stick because some guy did that in 1,600 either. How long does it take for something to be a legitimate part of the game, 100 years? 200 years? 1,000 years? I'm good with half a century.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #107 on: May 15, 2012, 12:11:53 PM »
Sigh....

There is golf and there is tournament golf. They are not the same. Repeat it. Understand it. It is as true as all of the true statements you are making about golf and the way it should be played (which I don't, necessarily, disagree with). BOTH things are true.

By the way, I play BOTH kinds of golf. I work the ball left-to-right, right-to-left, high, low, run it, bump it, flop it, check it, make it stop, make it release, you name it. I LOVE playing the ground game. In fact, it suits me best. I endeavor to be an artist on the golf course (in my own way), and am anything but robotic. For those of you that have played with me, you can certainly attest to that fact.

Golf, to me, is art. It is life. It is man against nature, and that's why I love it.

But I'll still use a laser in tournaments -- because, once again, there is golf, and there is tournament golf -- and they are not the same.



<...lots of interesting stuff...>


Melvyn Morrow

Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2012, 12:17:19 PM »

More importantly how long before someone with honest balls calls it what it really is cheating, not to mention totally inconsiderate to others golfers. Now that is something the Rules of Etiquette does make a comment on.

Go for what you want, pacing is a heinous action and distance aids are just morally wrong.

Clearly we will not agree, so I will leave it there.

David

I understand but clearly Tournament Golf need to clean up its act. Money seems to be corrupting the game.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2012, 12:20:53 PM »

More importantly how long before someone with honest balls calls it what it really is cheating, not to mention totally inconsiderate to others golfers. Now that is something the Rules of Etiquette does make a comment on.

Go for what you want, pacing is a heinous action and distance aids are just morally wrong.

Clearly we will not agree, so I will leave it there.

David

I understand but clearly Tournament Golf need to clean up its act. Money seems to be corrupting the game.

For all of you anti-laser guys, I have a question: Tournament golf notwithstanding, what, in your mind, is the goal of a round of golf with your friends?

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2012, 12:24:39 PM »
...To enjoy their company.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2012, 12:27:59 PM »
...To enjoy their company.

Are you an anti-laser guy?

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2012, 12:44:51 PM »
Yes.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2012, 12:53:39 PM »
Yes.

So, if the goal is to enjoy a good time with your buds while knocking a ball around a beautiful piece of land, why the heck do you care how your buddy knocks his ball around the beautiful piece of land?

If, though, what you really enjoy is competition, (be it a $5 nassau or tournament golf) then understand that some of your buddies will do anything necessary that is within the rules to kick your ass when playing against you, including using an aid to determine yardage and/or putting with a monstrosity to cure his yips. Again, as long as it's within the rules.

Is he wrong to do so, if his goal is to beat your ass in competition when everything he is doing is legal and completely within the rules? He didn't make the rules, after all.

And if you're not playing a match, what the heck do you care?

So ... what's your real goal when playing golf?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2012, 01:00:41 PM »
David,

The only reason I play is to beat my friends.  But still I have no interest in playing with Ricky Rulebook.  Strangely enough that includes those who fairly and accurately bend the rules to their favor.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2012, 01:03:00 PM »
David,

The only reason I play is to beat my friends.  But still I have no interest in playing with Ricky Rulebook.  Strangely enough that includes those who fairly and accurately bend the rules to their favor.

Is using a distance measuring device "bending the rules in your favor" when the rule sheet specifically states: "Distance measuring devices are allowed, except those that measure slope or elevation change."

Is that the rule that you consider "bent"?

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2012, 01:04:17 PM »
Yes.

So, if the goal is to enjoy a good time with your buds while knocking a ball around a beautiful piece of land, why the heck do you care how your buddy knocks his ball around the beautiful piece of land?

If, though, what you really enjoy is competition, (be it a $5 nassau or tournament golf) then understand that some of your buddies will do anything necessary that is within the rules to kick your ass when playing against you, including using an aid to determine yardage and/or putting with a monstrosity to cure his yips. Again, as long as it's within the rules.

Is he wrong to do so, if his goal is to beat your ass in competition when everything he is doing is legal and completely within the rules? He didn't make the rules, after all.

And if you're not playing a match, what the heck do you care?

So ... what's your real goal when playing golf?

David:

That's about the 4th or 5th reference to "kicking ass" you've used in various threads on this and other subjects in recent days.

Maybe when you grow up you'll understand.

I tend not to play with people who want to kick my ass.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2012, 01:09:18 PM »
David,

The only reason I play is to beat my friends.  But still I have no interest in playing with Ricky Rulebook.  Strangely enough that includes those who fairly and accurately bend the rules to their favor.

Is using a distance measuring device "bending the rules in your favor" when the rule sheet specifically states: "Distance measuring devices are allowed, except those that measure slope or elevation change."

Is that the rule that you consider "bent"?

No, as a matter of fact I just purchased the Motorola GPS watch and love it.  My hands shake too much for a laser and I would forget it every third shot.  I'm a pre-diabetic alcoholic.

My problem with the rule benders centers around anytime they place their hand on their ball.  It just never works out well and most often worse amongst the better players.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2012, 01:11:23 PM »
Yes.

So, if the goal is to enjoy a good time with your buds while knocking a ball around a beautiful piece of land, why the heck do you care how your buddy knocks his ball around the beautiful piece of land?

If, though, what you really enjoy is competition, (be it a $5 nassau or tournament golf) then understand that some of your buddies will do anything necessary that is within the rules to kick your ass when playing against you, including using an aid to determine yardage and/or putting with a monstrosity to cure his yips. Again, as long as it's within the rules.

Is he wrong to do so, if his goal is to beat your ass in competition when everything he is doing is legal and completely within the rules? He didn't make the rules, after all.

And if you're not playing a match, what the heck do you care?

So ... what's your real goal when playing golf?

David:

That's about the 4th or 5th reference to "kicking ass" you've used in various threads on this and other subjects in recent days.

Maybe when you grow up you'll understand.

I tend not to play with people who want to kick my ass.

I use that terminology because golf is, by its very nature, a competitive game. Men are, by their very nature, competitive. If you are NOT competitive, then why do you care how someone plays the "knock the ball around" game?

If you are competitive (as I suspect you are to some degree), then you are not being very consistent, or fair-minded to your fellow competitors. You can't have it both ways.

Golf is competitive game, or it isn't -- for each individual round you are playing. You and the people you are playing with determine that, and there is no right or wrong answer there. You can play a "fun" round (I play plenty of those), and during those rounds, who gives a crud how we play the game. And then the very next round could be a competitive round (again, a $5 nassau or the U.S. Open), and then the game is completely and totally different, because my goal, in entering the competition, is to beat you and every other golfer out there, while playing the game as described in the rules of golf.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2012, 01:12:50 PM »
David,

The only reason I play is to beat my friends.  But still I have no interest in playing with Ricky Rulebook.  Strangely enough that includes those who fairly and accurately bend the rules to their favor.

Is using a distance measuring device "bending the rules in your favor" when the rule sheet specifically states: "Distance measuring devices are allowed, except those that measure slope or elevation change."

Is that the rule that you consider "bent"?

No, as a matter of fact I just purchased the Motorola GPS watch and love it.  My hands shake too much for a laser and I would forget it every third shot.  I'm a pre-diabetic alcoholic.

My problem with the rule benders centers around anytime they place their hand on their ball.  It just never works out well and most often worse amongst the better players.

"cheater line"?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #120 on: May 15, 2012, 01:16:05 PM »
Phil,

I prefer to play with guys who want to kick my ass.  Makes it that much sweeter when I somehow end up getting in their pocket.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #121 on: May 15, 2012, 01:22:27 PM »
Phil,

I prefer to play with guys who want to kick my ass.  Makes it that much sweeter when I somehow end up getting in their pocket.

Amen to that. I play with a dozen guys, all of whom are pretty closely matched, and I can tell you that there is nothing that is better than finding a group of guys like that. We push each other, encourage each other, console each other, teach each other, and bitch about each other, all the while trying to beat each other.

I wouldn't have it any other way....

Joe Leenheer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #122 on: May 15, 2012, 10:24:22 PM »
I love to guess yardages and find out if I'm right, because it helps to be good at it in my day job.

But, I hate that you use a laser to play.

Couple of things..

I can't believe I let a thread go 5 pages before responding to Mr. Doak (I have put myself on double secret probation).

Mr. Doak,  I don't use a laser to play.  I use golf clubs. ;-)   Do you use a map or laser to build a golf course? Or do you use steam shovels and sweat?

I use a laser in all of my rounds because I do use it in tournament rounds.  I believe the old adage of "practice like you play" is my reasoning.  If I didn't play competitive golf...I would still use one :-)

I do play at least one round a year without a laser (not counting when I forget it or my battery runs out) and it was recently in the local US Open Qualifier.  I smartly took one of the local caddies.  He quickly proved his worth on the 5th hole when he pointed out that the sprinkler head that I had just gotten my yardage from was an "old one" and I was 25+ yards off.  I still made bogey, but at least I couldn't blame a bad yardage.

In most of my tournament rounds I am provided a hole location sheet.  This is much more valuable then a laser as then I know distance to front, middle, back, and flag (assuming that the course yardages are correct).  Most courses do not provide one on a regular basis.

Sorry to dredge up such a controversial topic....but that seems to be what I'm good at.  Maybe I should "not be that guy".

How about we talk about something less controversial like the property lines at PV?


Never let the quality of your game determine the quality of your time spent playing it.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #123 on: May 16, 2012, 01:05:02 AM »
Phil McDade,

If you are playing to enjoy the company of your friends, that is all well and good, but only a competition (even a friendly competition) can bring out the architecture of the course to it's fullest. 

If you are really interested in architecture, you should be interested in competitive golf.  If you are interested in competitive golf, you should be interested in how far you have to the hole. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Don't be that guy....Part Deux
« Reply #124 on: May 16, 2012, 06:58:02 AM »

David

I am sorry my friend but your statement seems rather blind to the whole game. GCA can very much be enjoyed while playing competitive golf but from a young age I have embraced each Hole and each course I have played. I have been made aware of the way to navigate the terrain and hazards, to accept the challenges before me be it through the efforts of Man or his Gods.

One of the most exhilarating experiences of my golfing life was to play alone on new sites that I had never played before. To navigate the Holes for the first time, to look for options and the traps to what is surely one of the greatest parts of playing the game. Then return that afternoon to replay the course opens one’s eyes to what was missed in the morning as well as seeing the different light playing its part to help illuminate the real intricacies of land, course and GCA.

Competitions may indeed assist but surely, no to the same extent after all you are concentrating in winning so the mind looks but just see what is its priority, getting to that pin with the fewest shots possible. That in my experience blocks out a larger part of GCA, just focusing on the pin each time.

Perhaps if you keep losing that might explain why you see more. ;)

Melvyn

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