[Melvyn Morrow]

David

Alas we are not all playing the same game, you need outside help to judge distance I do not. Sorry my friend but its not the same game

Melvyn

[David Ober]

Phil,

My experience has been that laser range finders are more popular among lower handicaps -- 0-7, say -- and that GPS is far more popular among the higher handicap set.

Yes. Most low handicap (especially tournament level players) prefer lasers. We want to know exactly how far it is to the pin because it really does matter -- especially inside 150 or so, depending on the player. I know that I can carry my SW 110 - 115 yards in 80+ degree weather, and if I have to carry it 119, I just can't do it unless I have a helping wind, or I'm hitting slightly downhill, or I'm significantly above sea level.

I'm certainly not good enough to demand that level of accuracy with my mid and long irons, but on my wedges, I am that good (when I'm playing well and not injured). The problem with the GPS units is that you really are only ever guessing at where the pin is unless you have a pin sheet (and even those I have seen off by 7 - 10 yards before). The problem is on large, multi-section greens, where you just can't tell if it's in the middle or on the right third, or where. Is it just over the bunker, or is it 15 paces from the bunker. If I'm playing a tournament, I need to know that, and it's simple: I laser the face of the bunker, I laser the flag. It takes me five or six seconds, much shorter than pulling out a yardage book, pulling out the pin sheet, and doing the math.

What would you anti-laser guys prefer? No yardages anywhere? Yardages on sprinkler heads only? 100/150/200/250/300 yard markers only? Whatever your preference, all I can tell you is that whatever GOLF decides (the USGA and R&A), I'm fine with, and I'll play the game that way. But once you start introducing yardages on sprinkler heads, then you've now necessitated that tournament players USE them lest they be at a serious competitive disadvantage. Once we started lasering yardages from sprinkler heads, it only made sense to allow lasers on the golf course, since they speed up play when used properly. The fact that some players don't know how to use them is pointless, since many of the same players have no idea how to use a yardage book or a pin sheet and insist on using them and REALLY slowing things down in the process.

That's my take at least....
  

[David Ober]

David

Alas we are not all playing the same game, you need outside help to judge distance I do not. Sorry my friend but its not the same game

Melvyn

I don't "need" it. I use it because: 1) It's perfectly legal in most tournaments, and therefore ethical, IMHO; 2) it is -- demonstrably -- more accurate than eyeballing it for any human being on the planet; 3) there are several holes a round where my estimate would be off more than 10 yards, which is the point at which it could cost me 1 or 2 strokes on a given hole; I play competitive golf, and I care very much about how well I play in any given tournament I'm playing, and therefore endeavor to do everything I can to play my best, which includes knowing my yardages before I hit; 4) it takes mere seconds to do, which is shorter than pacing off yardages from sprinkler heads for the tournament player.

And yes, we are playing the same game: You chose not to avail yourself of the rules of golf. Not using a range finder is like playing with 13 clubs. You can play with 13 clubs all you want to, but don't complain to me when I come out and have a 14th club in my bag. You CHOOSE to carry only 13 clubs.

Finally, if it weren't legal, I wouldn't do it. In competitive golf, what's legal is what's ethical. In life, that's not true, but in golf, it is. Make them illegal (like they are in some tournaments), and I won't use one, and will have NO PROBLEM following that rule. But if they're legal, I'm gonna use one.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bottom line they are legal – one reason why I am unhappy with the R&A, they do not seem to think their decision through – As legal you have every right to use them.

It is deeply unsportsmanlike for me, its using outside help and that with the traditions of the game makes me anti any form of distance aid. I feel the Governing Body have done the golfers a great injustice of considering it acceptable in any form, but they have. We can’t vote them out of office for their errors so perhaps golfers will in time consider them as morally indefensible and may stop using them, but I will not hold my breath.

It’s the old fear of the grass is greener on your opponents side, he uses one so you must to try to level the advantage, alas the game suffers because we now tolerate such outside devices instead of relying upon the real thing behind the game, that is IMHO skill, the steady acquirement of skill as we try to master each facet of the game. And it also adds for a duller game too. Why was yardage made legal when in fact its evil and destructive to the thinking mind of a golfer.

Thanks for your input, fully understand you position, pity you and others were put in it in the first place.   

Melvyn

[DMoriarty]

David,

Your posts do a good job highlighting why you and other (particularly better) golfers like the range finders, but I also think you might inadvertently highlight the objections others have with such aids.  You like them because they are much more accurate and exact than would be your attempts to estimate the distance.   Some consider estimation - and the uncertainty that goes along trying to estimate - to be integral parts of the game.   Just as the perfect swing is a skill and reading a putt is a skill, so is estimating distance.   The laser distance finder (and gps) seem to take out these elements, at least for this part of the game.

I understand such devices are legal and don't knock you for playing by the rules, but I'd rather that such devices were not legal.    I realize it is a slippery slope with plates in the fairway, sprinkler heads, front-middle-back yardages, yardage books, caddies, etc., but there is something particularly bothersome about lasers and gps.   Probably because it is the direct substitution of a machine.  It seems to take the human element completely out of the process.  

As for your questions, I could live without yardages all together, but don't have a major problem with plates every 50 yards or so.  On the spectrum of no markers or help ever, to exact laser yardage, I tend toward the side that emphasizes the human element and its necessary shortcomings.

[David Ober]

I understand that completely, David, and appreciate the sentiment. And I actually agree. If golf only allowed discs on the course at 25 yard intervals, I would think golf would be a bit more "pure." But that's not where the game is today, so I don't play that way.

Curiously (and ironically), though, here is what would happen if that were the case: Wealthy players would hire caddies to walk the entire course for them, lasering (or pacing) yardages to every single landmark possible, thereby creating their very own yardage books. The (financially) average player could not afford such a convenience and would be at a competitive disadvantage, which is not cool in my opinion. Not cool at all. :-)

So, in closing, I will only say that range finders, in a way, "equalize" the game. EVERYONE has access to precise yardages, instead of only those with enough "course knowledge" or money to pay a caddie that walk the course for them.

:-)

David,

Your posts do a good job highlighting why you and other (particularly better) golfers like the range finders, but I also think you might inadvertently highlight the objections others have with such aids.  You like them because they are much more accurate and exact than would be your attempts to estimate the distance.   Some consider estimation - and the uncertainty that goes along trying to estimate - to be integral parts of the game.   Just as the perfect swing is a skill and reading a putt is a skill, so is estimating distance.   The laser distance finder (and gps) seem to take out these elements, at least for this part of the game.

I understand such devices are legal and don't knock you for playing by the rules, but I'd rather that such devices were not legal.    I realize it is a slippery slope with plates in the fairway, sprinkler heads, front-middle-back yardages, yardage books, caddies, etc., but there is something particularly bothersome about lasers and gps.   Probably because it is the direct substitution of a machine.  It seems to take the human element completely out of the process.  

As for your questions, I could live without yardages all together, but don't have a major problem with plates every 50 yards or so.  On the spectrum of no markers or help ever, to exact laser yardage, I tend toward the side that emphasizes the human element and its necessary shortcomings.

[Phil McDade]

I understand that completely, David, and appreciate the sentiment. And I actually agree. If golf only allowed discs on the course at 25 yard intervals, I would think golf would be a bit more "pure." But that's not where the game is today, so I don't play that way.

Curiously (and ironically), though, here is what would happen if that were the case: Wealthy players would hire caddies to walk the entire course for them, lasering (or pacing) yardages to every single landmark possible, thereby creating their very own yardage books. The (financially) average player could not afford such a convenience and would be at a competitive disadvantage, which is not cool in my opinion. Not cool at all. :-)

So, in closing, I will only say that range finders, in a way, "equalize" the game. EVERYONE has access to precise yardages, instead of only those with enough "course knowledge" or money to pay a caddie that walk the course for them.

:-)

David,

Your posts do a good job highlighting why you and other (particularly better) golfers like the range finders, but I also think you might inadvertently highlight the objections others have with such aids.  You like them because they are much more accurate and exact than would be your attempts to estimate the distance.   Some consider estimation - and the uncertainty that goes along trying to estimate - to be integral parts of the game.   Just as the perfect swing is a skill and reading a putt is a skill, so is estimating distance.   The laser distance finder (and gps) seem to take out these elements, at least for this part of the game.

I understand such devices are legal and don't knock you for playing by the rules, but I'd rather that such devices were not legal.    I realize it is a slippery slope with plates in the fairway, sprinkler heads, front-middle-back yardages, yardage books, caddies, etc., but there is something particularly bothersome about lasers and gps.   Probably because it is the direct substitution of a machine.  It seems to take the human element completely out of the process.  

As for your questions, I could live without yardages all together, but don't have a major problem with plates every 50 yards or so.  On the spectrum of no markers or help ever, to exact laser yardage, I tend toward the side that emphasizes the human element and its necessary shortcomings.

David:

Your comments reflect the manner in which the game is played for an incredibly small -- 1 in a 1,000? I'd bet even less than that -- subset of people who golf. The best way to "even out" the playing experience for all players would be to ban players from bringing in any and all informational aids to the course, and simply play the course as its presented to the player. If the course chooses to provide information on its sprinkler heads, or via white stakes, so be it. Knowing exact yardages removes one more skill set from the game, which as David M. suggests, is a major reason range finders should be banned.

[David Ober]

Your comments reflect the manner in which the game is played for an incredibly small -- 1 in a 1,000? I'd bet even less than that -- subset of people who golf. The best way to "even out" the playing experience for all players would be to ban players from bringing in any and all informational aids to the course, and simply play the course as its presented to the player. If the course chooses to provide information on its sprinkler heads, or via white stakes, so be it. Knowing exact yardages removes one more skill set from the game, which as David M. suggests, is a major reason range finders should be banned.

Interesting ... are not caddies and caddies giving players yardages quite old? Has this not been going on for many, many years? Would you ban the practice of a player creating his own yardage book or having a caddie do it for him?

[Phil McDade]

Your comments reflect the manner in which the game is played for an incredibly small -- 1 in a 1,000? I'd bet even less than that -- subset of people who golf. The best way to "even out" the playing experience for all players would be to ban players from bringing in any and all informational aids to the course, and simply play the course as its presented to the player. If the course chooses to provide information on its sprinkler heads, or via white stakes, so be it. Knowing exact yardages removes one more skill set from the game, which as David M. suggests, is a major reason range finders should be banned.

Interesting ... are not caddies and caddies giving players yardages quite old? Has this not been going on for many, many years? Would you ban the practice of a player creating his own yardage book or having a caddie do it for him?

Yes. Why do you need a caddie to play the game?

[David Ober]

Your comments reflect the manner in which the game is played for an incredibly small -- 1 in a 1,000? I'd bet even less than that -- subset of people who golf. The best way to "even out" the playing experience for all players would be to ban players from bringing in any and all informational aids to the course, and simply play the course as its presented to the player. If the course chooses to provide information on its sprinkler heads, or via white stakes, so be it. Knowing exact yardages removes one more skill set from the game, which as David M. suggests, is a major reason range finders should be banned.

Interesting ... are not caddies and caddies giving players yardages quite old? Has this not been going on for many, many years? Would you ban the practice of a player creating his own yardage book or having a caddie do it for him?

Yes. Why do you need a caddie to play the game?

You don't. Not at all. I rarely, rarely use one. Still, though, they are part of the very fabric of golf. Interesting that in your attempt at making the game more traditional and "pure," you feel the need to ban something about as traditional as the game itself....

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

The whole point of my argument against ALL forms of distance information perhaps excluding the Hole length on the score card or course map is that its new.

In all my research and family decisions I have never come across distance in the way the game uses it today and for over the last 30-40 years. Caddies did not give yardage info because it meant nothing to golfers of old. The only time distance tended to be referred to was in Driving Competitions where each drive was measured and this was in the time of Braid, Taylor etc. Caddies just carried the clubs went forward to find or retrieve balls in water or burns but not to offer yardage as they did not need or understand this modern desire to know yardage. I am more certain that the old golfers would consider the modern yardage system nothing short of blatant cheating or would look down very much on players dropping down to that level. This is one of the reasons why I never understood the R&A tolerating distance aids.

How would a golfer learn but through practice and distance negate practice as very much an outside aid. Today I also feel that Caddies should not offer up info on distance, perhaps directions for the novice, but for goodness sake we need to decide are we playing golf. Do we want others and toys doing all the work for us. If so what the point of the game, where is the challenge and players commitment?

If distance was used pre 1950’s we should see the yardage books, see the reports in the newspaper and even in club and competition papers, yet I can find no evidence that yardage or markers were used. Certainly my family has no records or papers relating to yardage information in the format we use today. 

Why is it legal, who thought of it in the first place and actually why when using say a featherie, or gutty or Haskell ball all with Hickory clubs. It, like carts are the invention of the modern golfing devil.

Melvyn

[Phil McDade]

Caddies are decidedly not "part of the very fabric of golf." They are available at very few courses. They are used very few times, by the vast majority of players, taking part in golf. They may be part of the fabric of a small, niche part of the game (tournament golf at its highest levels), but not of the entirety of golf (nor have they been; the game was founded in Scotland, and very few Scottish courses have had caddies available during their history).

One in five players in the game carry an active handicap. Which means 80 percent of those golfing don't care enough about their scores to track them via easily accessible handicap systems, which suggests (strongly, to me) they don't get in a bind over whether their yardage to the hole is 120 yards, or 125, or 115 yards. Of those who do carry a handicap, the average handicap is a 20, which suggests (again, strongly, to me) their games aren't good enough to need exact yardages via a range finder. (I should know; when I play regularly, I'm about a 20.) Those folks are bogey golfers, for whom I'd argue range finders function as one more impediment to improving their games.

David -- your experience is the outlier here.

[Bill_McBride]

Banning caddies, for me, would be like banning balls and tees.  

You don't have to use a caddie, but many make a living carrying other people's bags around a golf course.  What's wrong with that?

[David Ober]

Caddies are decidedly not "part of the very fabric of golf." They are available at very few courses. They are used very few times, by the vast majority of players, taking part in golf. They may be part of the fabric of a small, niche part of the game (tournament golf at its highest levels), but not of the entirety of golf (nor have they been; the game was founded in Scotland, and very few Scottish courses have had caddies available during their history).

One in five players in the game carry an active handicap. Which means 80 percent of those golfing don't care enough about their scores to track them via easily accessible handicap systems, which suggests (strongly, to me) they don't get in a bind over whether their yardage to the hole is 120 yards, or 125, or 115 yards. Of those who do carry a handicap, the average handicap is a 20, which suggests (again, strongly, to me) their games aren't good enough to need exact yardages via a range finder. (I should know; when I play regularly, I'm about a 20.) Those folks are bogey golfers, for whom I'd argue range finders function as one more impediment to improving their games.

David -- your experience is the outlier here.

I already said that I rarely use one. I think I've had a caddy for 20 rounds in my entire life.

They are, though, part of golf from the very beginning if I'm not mistaken. They are written into the rules of golf from at least a hundred years ago, are they not?

That's what I meant by "fabric."

[Phil McDade]

Bill:

See my response #49.

I think more clubs should use caddies, for the reasons you (and I) mention.

But I'd ban them for tournament use of any kind.

David:

Caddies are nowhere mentioned in the 13 original rules drawn up by the Honourable Company in 1744. Lots of rules have been added since then, mostly to the detriment of the game.

[David_Elvins]

Melvyn,

It should be pretty obvious why lasers were not a historical feature of the game.  Laser technology was not invented at the time. 

Besides, old tom and his mates could barely cover 150 yards in the air.  Today golfers are covering 300 yards+.

Technology has advanced greater than eyesight. 

There is no doubt that if laser technology was available in the 19th century, and old tom could hit a ball a decent distance, then he would have embraced laser technology, much like all the other technologies of the day he embraced.

Old tom was not a traditionalist, he played with the latest technology, and even helped develop and promote some of it.  It surprises me that you are such a traditionalist when he was not.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Phil

Caddies are very much part of the fabric of golf. They carried clubs way before the invention of the bag. Their duties apart from carrying clubs included finding the ball for their Gentlemen golfers. Here are two photos one from 1850 and the second 1859/60. See the caddies, clearly part of the scene, I believe.

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

It’s not only electronic I am talking about its distance aids full stop. As for Old Tom yes he used technology but never to gain advantage. It was to improve the game and using outside aids, I fear he would see you off TOC whether the R&A considered them legal or not. Anything considered cheating was just not acceptable and I believe distance aids would be seen as cheating back then.

As for what they could do back then, I feel you underestimate their abilities. Young Tommy down in 3 the 1st At Prestwick in 1870, it was a 568 yard long Hole. He took three shots using a gutty and Hickory, think today even with modern clubs that’s still a better than fair score.

Melvyn

[Phil McDade]

Melvyn:

Your second photo is that of Willie Dunn, Willie Park, Old Tom, and Allan Robertson, among others, at The Old Course in 1856 -- probably, given the course and caliber of players assembled, a tournament of some regard. Again, tournament golf. I don't believe caddies were all that prominent at other early, lesser-known sites of the game, such as Peterhead, Wick or Inverallochy.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Phil

Was there a Peterhead, Wick or Inverallochy in 1850's? The records for other clubs approx 30 or so in total used caddies as in those days it was a game for Gentlemen and Gentlemen did not carry clubs.

Melvyn

[Brent Hutto]

Somewhere along the lines, many decades ago, golfers discovered that knowing how far you're trying to hit the ball offers an advantage over guessing how far you're trying to hit the ball. So they started pacing off yardages from known points. Then they started keeping little paper booklets with those numbers in them to save time. Then golf courses started planting posts and bushes and eventually marking yardages on sprinkler heads. Nowadays, many golfer simplify it one more step by just directly obtaining the yardage from a handheld laser device.

But it all dates back to that realization that with all the uncertainty in the flight of a golf ball and with all the variability in ones golf swing, eliminating the single largest bit of uncertainty "How far is it?" is none the less a distinct benefit. It's a big benefit for elite players who have repeatable swings and know their distances with each club under varying conditions. It's a tiny little benefit to the less skilled players who seldom make solid contact. But it's universally a benefit.

Kind of like when golfers discovered a ball goes farther and straighter with dimples than without. Or that steel shafts let you use a much more powerful swing with fewer moving parts than hickory. Or that a distinctly putting motion on the green is more precise than a tiny little chipping motion. Or more to the point, that having a matched set of iron clubs with regular loft, lie and length progression is an advantage over a bunch of mismatched clubs each requiring its own, unique, quirky bit of business to produce a good shot.

So the things that are advantages, that are allowed by the Rules, get adopted by the majority of golfers. One of the beauties of the game is that anyone who likes can turn his back on all or part of the past century or so of refinements to the way the game is played. Don't use a laser, don't pace off yardages, hell wear a blindfold and play by feel and sound instead of vision if you like. Or play featherie balls and wooden clubs if that is more rewarding to you. But none of those methods is any more pure or noble or honest or in keeping with the spirit of the game than the usual modern approach. Just be sure not to injure something patting yourself on the back for ignoring this or that little bit of modern golf equipment because it doesn't fit your idealized, dreamy image of a game that no longer is and probably never quite was.

[Sam Morrow]

How do we know Old Tom wouldn't have used a laser? We can't know and never will, he was gone long before lasers.

[David Ober]

Somewhere along the lines, many decades ago, golfers discovered that knowing how far you're trying to hit the ball offers an advantage over guessing how far you're trying to hit the ball. So they started pacing off yardages from known points. Then they started keeping little paper booklets with those numbers in them to save time. Then golf courses started planting posts and bushes and eventually marking yardages on sprinkler heads. Nowadays, many golfer simplify it one more step by just directly obtaining the yardage from a handheld laser device.

But it all dates back to that realization that with all the uncertainty in the flight of a golf ball and with all the variability in ones golf swing, eliminating the single largest bit of uncertainty "How far is it?" is none the less a distinct benefit. It's a big benefit for elite players who have repeatable swings and know their distances with each club under varying conditions. It's a tiny little benefit to the less skilled players who seldom make solid contact. But it's universally a benefit.

Kind of like when golfers discovered a ball goes farther and straighter with dimples than without. Or that steel shafts let you use a much more powerful swing with fewer moving parts than hickory. Or that a distinctly putting motion on the green is more precise than a tiny little chipping motion. Or more to the point, that having a matched set of iron clubs with regular loft, lie and length progression is an advantage over a bunch of mismatched clubs each requiring its own, unique, quirky bit of business to produce a good shot.

So the things that are advantages, that are allowed by the Rules, get adopted by the majority of golfers. One of the beauties of the game is that anyone who likes can turn his back on all or part of the past century or so of refinements to the way the game is played. Don't use a laser, don't pace off yardages, hell wear a blindfold and play by feel and sound instead of vision if you like. Or play featherie balls and wooden clubs if that is more rewarding to you. But none of those methods is any more pure or noble or honest or in keeping with the spirit of the game than the usual modern approach. Just be sure not to injure something patting yourself on the back for ignoring this or that little bit of modern golf equipment because it doesn't fit your idealized, dreamy image of a game that no longer is and probably never quite was.

I think I have a crush on you Mr. Hutto. LOL!!!

Well said, my friend. Well said.

[David_Elvins]

It's no surprising they weren't using distance measuring devices - they are about a foot from the hole and it is easy to eyeball that.   

[Sam Morrow]

If you look closely it looks like the second guy on the left has the putter anchored into his belly. If it is I think I would shit myself.

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