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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2012, 08:38:15 AM »
Sean
When the going gets tough you exit the side door, probably a prudent strategy. Admittedly your queer story is difficult to explain, and obviously you would prefer not to come to terms, which I think we all knew would be the case. As I have said £7 is not going to buy much in 1908.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2012, 10:17:55 AM »

Tom

In Reply 53 you said

It seems to me you have a lot of the Old Tom Morris syndrome with Braid. Having his name attached to your club was/is a badge of distinction even if in reality he simply gave advice, or in some cases just pulled up and asked for directions.

You previously made the following statement In My Opinion section of this site under the heading The Early Golf Architects: Beyond Old Tom

The first point relates to the title of this essay, and the number of golf courses erroneously attributed to Old Tom Morris. Old Tom is one of the most important figures in the history of the game, and one of the most significant course designers of this early period. Not only did he lay out a large number of golf courses, he was instrumental in spreading the game at a most crucial time. That being said there are scores of courses (some of them very prominent courses) that Morris biographer Robert Kroeger and others have given to Old Tom that are actually the work of others. In fairness to these Morris biographers it is not entirely their fault. In Old Tom’s day clubs were eager to have his name associated with their golf courses. A site inspection, a grand opening appearance, a minor redesign, advise on greenkeeping matters or the use of the clubhouse restroom might result in Old Tom being given design credit. Lahinch and Rosapenna are two glaring examples. It should also be noted this practice is not unique to OTM – there has been tendency for some clubs to overplay the involvement of James Braid, Donald Ross and other favored architects. Whatever the motivation of these clubs and authors, there is no need to exaggerate Old Tom’s already outstanding record, especially when it is done at the expense of these men.

Perhaps you could be so kind as to list courses that you believe complies with this so call syndrome. Through all my searches I have not experience or found anything of that nature. And certainly nothing that would warrant this ungratefull slur on his name 'the use of the clubhouse restroom might result in Old Tom being given design credit.'  Perhaps by listing them we will see exactly what you are driving at in the hope of clearing this issue once and for all.

Please do remember that travel back then was expensive, laborious and time consuming using mainly steam trains, steamers ships pony and trap and finally walking. No airline travel, door to door coach or chauffeur service let alone even self-drive as we have today.

So I am very interested to see your list which I presume you believe will qualify as the equivalent of todays Signature Courses. Something as I said above something I believe did not exist in Old Tom’s day.

By listing them you will allow debate or at least an opportunity to answer criticism that you have made but not so that I can find with any real justification. So let’s see your list, examine the points and see if he was or was not involved in the design or course modification. I may have some, possible more than some of the answers. I may not be able to comment or agree totally with your findings.

Whatever, I believe it’s now time to try and put the record straight.

In closing I do not dispute that errors were and are being made in crediting course design to numerous architects/designers but I have found that also applies in reverse. But let’s try to clear up some if not the majority of doubts you have re Old Tom.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2012, 10:33:15 AM »
Sean
When the going gets tough you exit the side door, probably a prudent strategy. Admittedly your queer story is difficult to explain, and obviously you would prefer not to come to terms, which I think we all knew would be the case. As I have said £7 is not going to buy much in 1908.

Tommy Mac

I will fall through the trap door once I am convinced there isn't much reason to carry on.  Stick to your £7 story, it doesn't much matter.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2012, 02:17:09 PM »
In 1913 Colt states a new Heathland course being "cheap" at $20-$25K. 

(He does describe this type of course as being "very costly"..ploughing up heather etc). 
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2012, 02:54:04 PM »
Tom

Some examples referred to in previous posts;

1920

James Braid for Professional Services for making out proposed new No. 2 course at Turnberry - £28 5s

1922

Dr MacKenzie - 10 guineas plsu travelling expenses for 1 day visit to report on the selection and suitability for the site of a golf course at Hazlehead, Aberdeen.

1925

Dr MacKenzie - fixed fee of 20 guineas plus necessary travelling expenses for no more than two days work to provide report and plan for Burgh course at North Berwick.

(This fee undercut Colts fee proposal of 30 guineas plus expenses)

I just don't see where any of these guys were routinely getting a couple of hundred pounds a commission.

Niall

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #105 on: May 21, 2012, 10:58:03 PM »
Niall
Those charges are not uncommon for a report and a submitted plan, and usually if the club accepted the plan they subtracted those charges from the overall cost, which was often 6% of the total cost of the project.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 11:00:18 PM by Tom MacWood »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2012, 12:43:00 PM »
In 1913 Colt states a new Heathland course being "cheap" at $20-$25K. 

(He does describe this type of course as being "very costly"..ploughing up heather etc). 

Paul,

Basically £5K or £6K, which was about twice the cost of your average course. That doesn't sound unreasonable given what you say about ploughing up heather etc.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2012, 12:50:44 PM »
Niall
Those charges are not uncommon for a report and a submitted plan, and usually if the club accepted the plan they subtracted those charges from the overall cost, which was often 6% of the total cost of the project.

Tom

If we take the cost of building an average course (average in terms of topography/soil conditions etc) as being c. £3,000 which is the upper end of the average scale, and then assume the gca gets a full fee of 10% of the build costs ie. £300. And then we assume, as you suggest, that the gca has provided a full plan and report for say £30 which comes off the £300. What did these guys do for the other £270 ?

For instance I would have expected the fee to be front loaded such that time at the start incl. the time taken to provide the report and plan would have been more expensive. But even if you allow that the gca was charging out at the same rate throughout, how many hours/days/visits to site do you think the gca had to make to get their full fee ?

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2012, 02:07:47 PM »
bump

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2012, 04:12:52 PM »
Niall
Those charges are not uncommon for a report and a submitted plan, and usually if the club accepted the plan they subtracted those charges from the overall cost, which was often 6% of the total cost of the project.

Tom

If we take the cost of building an average course (average in terms of topography/soil conditions etc) as being c. £3,000 which is the upper end of the average scale, and then assume the gca gets a full fee of 10% of the build costs ie. £300. And then we assume, as you suggest, that the gca has provided a full plan and report for say £30 which comes off the £300. What did these guys do for the other £270 ?

For instance I would have expected the fee to be front loaded such that time at the start incl. the time taken to provide the report and plan would have been more expensive. But even if you allow that the gca was charging out at the same rate throughout, how many hours/days/visits to site do you think the gca had to make to get their full fee ?

Niall

Niall
£3,000 during which time frame, 1900s or 1920s?

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2012, 05:40:07 PM »
Ok, here are some construction costs of actual Mackenzie projects contained in a letter from him to Bury GC in 1920.
The most expensive was 10,000 pounds for the 9 hole London Flying Club course, but that is the exception. Typically they were 2-3500 pounds. Mackenzie's fees were less than 10% of these sums.


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #111 on: May 24, 2012, 12:15:05 PM »
Niall

You asked:

"What did these guys do for the other £270 ?"

Basically they supervised the project.  I know for Kennemer that Colt visited 12 times over a 2 year period and billed the club each time.   Some courses were more "supervised" than others and that would be reflected in the fee.




can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 5 Scottish golf course designers
« Reply #112 on: May 24, 2012, 01:54:18 PM »
Thanks Paul, that was what I was basically getting at. How much were the billing for a site visit back then ? ie. before the war and after, if there was any difference.

Niall

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