Top 5 Scottish golf course designers

[Mark Pearce]

Niall (C),

Surely Willie Park has to make the list, even if it's for his courses in England.  As a former Silloth member I'm surprised not to see him on your list.

[Brian_Ewen]

Still no love for Archie Simpson ?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Brian

I mentioned Simpson that is Archie not Tom as the Subject said something about Scottish.

Melvyn

[Rich Goodale]

The "Visit Scotland" website entry is embarrassingly poor, but you get what you pay for.  I'd say the top 5 are/were:

Ross
Morris, Sr.
Park, Jr.
Braid
Simpson, A.

In GolfWeek Speak, the top 5 "moderns" whose work I am familiar with would be:

Kidd
McKenzie, T
Hiseman

[Tom MacWood]

These rankings are always difficult; naming the five greatest Scottish designers is particularly difficult. There are a number worthy of consideration beyond those already mentioned. Some were more active than others, but some of the least prolific made important contributions to the art:

William Watson
JD Dunn
Alex Herd
Willie Campbell
Alex Findlay (born at sea but considered a Scot)
CK Hutchison
John Sutherland
Robert White
P. Mackenzie Ross
A. Mackenzie Ross
Tom Dunn
Charles Gibson
George Lowe
Willie Fernie
Tom Bendelow
John Low
B. Hall Blyth
S. Mure Fergusson

And though technically born in England, Alister Mackenzie and Guy Campbell considered themselves Scots. Campbell competed for Scotland in the International events.

[Sean_A]

I would go with

Dr Mac
D Ross
J Braid
CK Hutchison
W Park Jr

Ciao

[Niall C]

Once again I'm shown to be a numpty. Completely forgot about Willie Park Jnr not to mention even thinking about anyone between the early and golden age boys and the present day. MacKenzie Ross has to be a real contender.

Rich

Tom MacKenzie is a good spot but I think you will find that Robin is English even though he spent many years on the correct side of the border. 

Tom Mac

To that list you could easily add John McAndrew, George Smith, David Adams, Laurie Auchterlonie, Robert Maxwell and Ben Sayers.

Any other modern ones out there that are worthy of consideration ?

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

I thought of a few more although I don't think they would make the top five, or ten: Douglas Rolland, Peter Paxton, Charles Hunter and Ramsey Hunter. Rolland gets extra credit for being Colt's mentor.

[Tom MacWood]

What nationality was Desmond Muirhead?

[Jim McCann]

Niall

What about Paisley-born John R. Stutt, an associate of James Braid, who built many courses throughout GB&I with the great man from the 1920s to the 1940s?

[Marty Bonnar]

Niall

What about Paisley-born John R. Stutt, an associate of James Braid, who built many courses throughout GB&I with the great man from the 1920s to the 1940s?

Good one, Jim.
And let's not forget his son, J. Hamilton Stutt, a founder member of BAGCA and designer of our local muni if I recall corectly.
cheers,
FBD.

[Jim McCann]

Marty

I see the Cornish/Whitten "The Golf Course" book lists John Hamilton Stutt as the architect of the Glenrothes GC course in 1958 and he
is also credited with the design of "Glennoch G&CC, Firth of Clyde (1974)" which is actually Gleddoch, on the other side of the Clyde from me.

I played there last year and was mighty impressed with the routing on such a hilly site. Unfortunately, the hotel chain that currently runs the course doesn't seem to be investing much money in its upkeep, which is a crying shame as it has several very good holes and some really funky three-tiered greens benched into the hillside overlooking the Clyde.

[Brian_Ewen]

What nationality was Desmond Muirhead?

English

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

A link to Desmond Muirfield  from http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Desmond-Muirhead/1439/Default.aspx

Norwich lad of 1923

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Not as famous of those previously mentioned, but George L. Baillie made a very important contribution to Irish golf, designing quite a few courses in the 1880s and 1890s.

C.S. Butchart extended Baillie's layout at Bundoran to 18 holes, and I believe he designed some courses in Germany (Berlin?).

[Rich Goodale]

What nationality was Desmond Muirhead?

English

You are wrong,  Brian.  Desmond was not of this world.........

[Melvyn Morrow]

That would also explain the design of some of the modern courses ‘not of this world’ yes,  a good description for some.

Melvyn   

[Tom MacWood]

Alister Mackenzie
Donald Ross
Willie Park Jr
William Watson
CK Hutichison


The first four were not too difficult; the fifth and last choice was very hard.

[Niall C]

No Braid ?! Tom, if you don't mind me saying thats very much a view from across the pond. I tend to view Braid and Ross as being alike but on different sides of the Atlantic. If you were listing top 5 purely on numbers then no doubt that Braid would be on the list. In terms of quality designs I think he's still on the list although haven't seen enough Park and any Ross at all to say how he compares to them.

CK Hutchison, not sure what he's done to fall over the line in fifth place.

FBD

Not sure about Hamilton Stutt but you bring up an interesting point about JR, how much credit goes to the guy who "desigfned" it and how much to the builder ? JR built a lot of courses for Braid to his instruction, and no doubt the work he did had a great say on how good the course was, but how much did he actually design himself ?

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
The fifth spot was a hard one, and I seriously considered Braid and Guy Campbell. I put a lot of stock in original designs, as opposed to redesigns, and Hutchison has more quality original designs IMO. Braid's strength was redesign and for me its always difficult to evaluate what is added and what is inherited with a redesign.

[Niall C]

Tom

I think the thing about James Braid is that he is so ubiquiotous, particularly in Scotland. Any course he ever gave advice on tends to get listed as a Braid course, and he did advise on an awful lot of existing courses. He did however do far more than his fair share of new designs. In and around the Glasgow area for example there are numerous original Braid courses including East Ren. and Cawder which are two of the best. In nearby Lanarkshire, Wishaw and Hamilton are in my view two of the best in the area but you will never hear much about them simply because of where they are located.

And then of course there are the Gleneagles courses. In terms of the number of good solid courses he designed from scratch, he swamps any other scottish designer. What he lacked in flair (compared to MacKenzie) he made up for in his routing and good use of natural features. All in all I suspect the number of average courses where he gave a bit of bunkering advice and that his name subsequently got attached to, probably did his rep no favours.

Niall

[Ulrich Mayring]

Come on guys, what about John Chilver-Stainer?

Ulrich

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
Ironically Hutchison collaborated with Braid at Gleneagles, and Darwin (and others) thought CK deserved the bulk of the credit. I don't see a lot of outstanding original designs with Braid but I may be overlooking. In your opinion what are his five best designs?

[Niall C]

Tom

I've never read anyone other than MacKenzie who suggested that Hutchison deserved more of the credit at Gleneagles and even that was for the Queens course and not the Kings, and he said it in Spirit of St Andrews. A lot of that book is previously published material but not aware of those particular comments being made public before the book. The other you've got to remember is that MacKenzie and Braid often competed for work and in a number of occasions a club would have Braid one year and then MacKenzie the next and vice a versa, and on occasion Braid veto some of Mac's suggestions. An example of that was the first and 18th at Pollock that Mac wanted to switch but Braid rubbished the idea and they continue to be played the way they always have (Mac was right by the way !). I think that maybe explains Mac's comments more than anythign else.

I've read the Gleneagles correspondence which is in the National Archives of Scotland and there's no suggestion in there that Braid didn't take the lead in designing the course. I believe I might have read also comments from Hutchison giving the full credit to Braid but then that might have been out of modesty or perhaps even not wanting to take credit from Braid who after all was the big draw as far as the owners were concerned.

With regards Braids brawest (I'm sure you know every Braid course seems to have a hole called "Braids brawest") I really can't say as I've only played a fraction of his courses and many of them I suspect fly under the radar as far as recognition of their quality goes but as well as the ones already mentioned, I would happily recommend are Belleisle in Ayr, Brora to the north of Dornoch although don't rate it quite as highly as some, and have fond if a bit vague memories of Fortrose and Rosemarkie in my childhood. I would also mention Boat of Garten and Nairn Dunbar although not entirely sure what he did on that last course.

What courses did Hutchison do ? I know he redesigned Pitlochry (or at least I think I know !) but what else ?

Niall

[Niall C]

Come on guys, what about John Chilver-Stainer?

Ulrich

Ulrich

Very good point. Never been to Switzerland where I think a lot of JC-S's work is. Would love to see some photo's if anyone has some.

Niall