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Matthew Sander

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2012, 11:09:30 AM »
Scott Sander mentioned the rascal that resides within Pete Dye. One of his rascally moves may be the inclusion of hidden bunkers behind greens where missing slightly long may appear to be safe. The ninth at Harbour Town comes to mind (no picture), and below are a couple of other examples.




Steve Burrows

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2012, 11:24:15 AM »
Growing up in Indianapolis myself, I have been similarly subjected to a ton of Pete Dye courses, and even had the good fortune to tag along with Mr. Dye on a site visit at the renovation of Woodland Country Club when I worked as part of the construction crew, and to watch him visualize, and to express in words, what the shapers should be doing, rather than look at a set of plan documents where this information was preconceived.

His most well known courses are certainly not in Indiana (Crooked Stick being the obvious example), but playing some of his earlier work, not the least of which are Maple Creek and Sahm, has always been a fun learning experience as well.  The sites of these earlier works are not very inspiring, but you can see little knobs on the greens, or tie-in's to the green surrounds that really show the challenge that he prepared for players, and how knowledgeable he was about design, even at the beginning of his career.

Quite frankly, I rarely play well at Pete Dye golf courses.  They don't seem to fit my eye (though of course, this is usually what he was going for!!!), but I always love the opportunity to play them.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Mike Hendren

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2012, 11:31:32 AM »
I'm a huge fan.

Arguably, Pete Dye is one of the most important golf architect architects of all time.  Almost single-handedly, he turned the tide against three decades of indifferent and ill-conceived golf course architecture, mentoring proteges who would seize this momentum and resurrect the Golden Age of golf course design.

We are indebted to him.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Matt Kardash

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2012, 11:32:30 AM »
Here is another prime example of the obscured view/preferred line short par 4. These pics are from a photo tour I posted of Brickyard Crossing.



With the right side of the fairway protected by a bunker, one could play safer down the left side. However, this will be the resulting view of the approach...



Playing down the right side of the fairway will leave this view...



I think it is a neat trick making the greenside bunker visible yet placing the bunker a good 10 or 15 yards right of the green. It seems like it would fool the player into hitting further right than they should on the approach.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 11:34:39 AM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

George Pazin

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2012, 01:06:31 PM »
I must have started and erased a reply to this it 5 times now; the problem is that I have played a wider range and number of Pete Dye golf holes than most will ever see, so I feel some obligation to write something profound.

I was raised and, after some time away, again reside not far from Pete Dye.  I grew up playing his earliest works and now live on a hole of one of his most recent.  

After really noodling on it for far too long, here's the one thing I'd say:
If exposure to his most noted courses and quotes from the man himself leave one with the overriding takeaway that Pete Dye is all about punishment for punisment's sake, then that's a shame.

Pete Dye clearly likes to embrace, even celebrate, the notion that his courses are not considered fair.  And as Tom Doak's recollections make clear, Pete Dye has more than a bit of rascal in him, especially when the project calls for such.

But spend 10 days in Central Indiana.  Play all of his courses here, both the headliners and those you might sniff away as lesser because of conditioning or age or location.  Play Eagle Creek. The Fort.  Sahm. The Brickyard.  Woodland CC.  Maple Creek.  Crooked Stick.  The Bridgewater.  Kampen.  And make sure you play them from the tees that match your abilities.

I'll wager that after your tour, you'll walk away convinced that Pete Dye loves golf and golfers, and that the courses he has built here are very fair when attacked fairly.  (Which is to say that I don't think it's fair for a 12 to play tournament tees then wail and moan when he does not get unencumbered views, level lies, or preferred turf at all points.)

His legacy here will likely be very different than it is elsewhere.  Outside of Crooked Stick and possibly The Brickyard, I don't know that any of his courses here were built with the notion that pros would play them.  They were built for pleasure, and they deliver in spades.  Most feature very wide corridors and large greens that welcome shots hit to areas but reject shots hit poorly to 'spots'.

There is great variety here:

At the higher-profile courses rich with the more characteristic Dye feist (Cooked Stick, Brickyard), you'll indeed see a lot of the bulkheading, terrain-wrestling and odd land forms that are so polarizing.

But at what are now decades old munis, you'll find early signs of genius (#10 green & all of #12 at Sahm, the way the creek comes into play at what's now called "Dye's Walk", the enthusiastic exploitation of the land at Eagle Creek).  

And at the country club commissions of his later career (Woodland, Bridgewater), you'll see he's more than capable of delivering courses that make members want to walk off 18 and make a beeline for #1.  

Make no mistake - I'm not saying for a moment that it's all peaches and cream.  If I see another Dye par 3 that has a lake front and right and bunkers hard left of an apostrophe-shaped green, I believe I'll go TP his house after the round.  And for the life of me, I don't understand the volcano bunkers at all.

But in general, I wish the folks who don't like Pete Dye courses could play 'my' Pete Dye courses.  
Rather than drive me and others like me away from the game way back when (a heartbreaking theory offered in a recent SI roundtable about some of his tougher courses), Pete Dye built places that made me want to play again and again, offering measurable rewards to any strides forward my game had taken and appropriate punishment for lapses in care or caution.

I'm a fan.  Thanks for the invitation to prattle on.

Heckuva post, thanks for prattling on.

And that's coming from the one poster on this site that flat out doesn't get Pete Dye or his courses. Played two, toured a third, no real desire to see another, save maybe Casa de Campo and The Golf Club.

I wish I could find the time to take you up on your Tour Of Indy challenge, sounds like fun, particularly if you were there telling me why I'm nuts. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jay Flemma

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2012, 01:32:14 PM »
Here is another prime example of the obscured view/preferred line short par 4. These pics are from a photo tour I posted of Brickyard Crossing.



With the right side of the fairway protected by a bunker, one could play safer down the left side. However, this will be the resulting view of the approach...



Playing down the right side of the fairway will leave this view...



Nice, Matthew.  Strantz said he learned that same element from Dye and from Raynor too.  You can se elements of that at True Blue or Stonehouse or RNK.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Peter Pallotta

Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2012, 01:35:01 PM »
Just thought a touring pro's perspective would be interesting, Ernie Els on Sawgrass:

"Overall it is a real ball-strikers’ golf course. It’s not one of the longer courses we play on the PGA TOUR, but it punishes you if you make even half-a-mistake. There is so little margin for error on a lot of the holes. You need to be patient and sometimes you need to play the percentages and make par your friend. Solid golf gets you good rewards here."

Seems like PD delivered exactly what was needed, and added style and tv to the mex!

Peter

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2012, 01:52:40 PM »
Just thought a touring pro's perspective would be interesting, Ernie Els on Sawgrass:

"Overall it is a real ball-strikers’ golf course. It’s not one of the longer courses we play on the PGA TOUR, but it punishes you if you make even half-a-mistake. There is so little margin for error on a lot of the holes. You need to be patient and sometimes you need to play the percentages and make par your friend. Solid golf gets you good rewards here."

Seems like PD delivered exactly what was needed, and added style and tv to the mex!

Peter

One thing that really impresses me about TPC Sawgrass as a tournament venue is how it doesn't favor any part of the game. You must drive the ball well, you must hit approach shots well, you must be able to work the ball right-to-left and left-to-right, you must be able to chip and save some pars, and you must putt well. All aspects of the game are tested.

I think the past winners of the tournament reflect that. The list really encompasses every type of player, but no player has seemed to ever make it a place that they favor especially (no one has won there more than twice). Couples and Norman have won there, and Tiger and Phil too, but so did KJ Choi, Fred Funk, Craig Perks, and Justin Leonard. The best players of the age have generally been able to win there--Price, Norman, Couples, Love, Duvall, Woods, Mickelson ... but less heralded players can also claim the title if they put it all together.

William_G

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2012, 02:05:10 PM »
Good points Matthew.

Maybe with Sawgrass or Pete Dye design, that at the championship level, the course identifies who is playing the best as opposed to being a course that is favorable to certain players year in year out.

At Sawgrass, you have to hit precise golf shots from start to finish to win.
It's all about the golf!

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2012, 04:51:12 PM »
Good points Matthew.

Maybe with Sawgrass or Pete Dye design, that at the championship level, the course identifies who is playing the best as opposed to being a course that is favorable to certain players year in year out.

At Sawgrass, you have to hit precise golf shots from start to finish to win.


This is really what it comes down to. At 7,200 yards it's nowhere near the longest course on tour these days. But bombers cannot just overpower it. Still, in some places length is amply rewarded.

It all starts with the greens, which are small to begin with and play smaller, due to some severe slopes that divide them into sections and some severe fall-offs. Bomb and gouge doesn't work at Sawgrass. You need to be able to control your approach. (Oh, and you can't gouge it out of a swamp.)

John Nixon

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2012, 10:19:00 AM »
Scott Sander has nailed it. Well said, thanks.

I'll add Plum Creek (if you can ignore the encircling housing) and Harbour Trees (an older private course in Noblesville) to the central Indiana Dye Tour.

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2012, 10:24:17 AM »
I have played 60-65 Pete Dye designs, including 55 separate Dye courses just in 2007!

They run the gamut from all the brand names, to the no names in and around Indianapolis, and I must disagree with the contention by many of you that there's a certain sameness and similarity to his work.  Yes, I agree that we have all seen the short par four with the big mound hiding the green at clubs like long cove and old marsh. But one of the things I greatly admire about his designs is how diverse they are, in terms of topography, setting, and ambience.

The other thing about his career that is truly amazing is the difficult, difficult sites on which he has worked.  The problems and frustrations that he and his team encountered at TPC Sawgrass, or the Pete Dye golf club, or the Ocean course after hurricane Hugo, or out at PGA West Stadium course truly sets him apart in my mind.

Jason Topp

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2012, 10:52:40 AM »
I have played 60-65 Pete Dye designs, including 55 separate Dye courses just in 2007!

 I must disagree with the contention by many of you that there's a certain sameness and similarity to his work.  
Joel - I recognize that among all his courses there is diversity.  However, in my view many characteristics are repeated often.  I thnk they are all good concepts but from memory The Ocean Course, TPC Sawgrass, PGA West, The Wolf Course at Paiute, ASU Karsten, and to a lesser extent, Teeth of the Dog include the following charateristics:

1st/10th hole - 380-420 par four with a fairway hazard on one side and the green opening to the side of the hazard - TPC Sawgrass, PGA West, The Ocean Course, Teeth of the Dog, I am sure there are others

Early in each nine - short par five with angles a key to reaching

Early in each nine - a short par four with a mound or hazard

Middle of each nine - long par fours with wide fairways and draw/fade angles

Par 3, 4 and 5 in the last 3 holes.  The finisher is at an an angle around a pond or other hazard that serves the same function.  Often the 9th is on one side of the pond and the 18th on the other.

I like the concepts behind each of these holes, but they have been repeated often.

Matthew Rose

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2012, 02:33:17 PM »
Quote
Par 3, 4 and 5 in the last 3 holes.  The finisher is at an an angle around a pond or other hazard that serves the same function.  Often the 9th is on one side of the pond and the 18th on the other.

Some merit to this one.... in fact, I'd go further and guess that just about every Pete Dye course I've ever seen, the 16th was a par-five or long par-four, the 17th was always a dramatic par-three, and the 18th was always a long par-four with water.

There are exceptions I'm sure, but at least 90% of his most notable courses would have to finish this way.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Jason Connor

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2012, 02:48:20 PM »
I've enjoyed three:  the Barefoot Course and his course at University of Michigan.  And i used to live on the 7th hole of Harbour Trees, one of his early private designs in Indiana.

I doubt there are many Dye designs you hear less about than Harbour Trees.  It's a great family club and they're proud of the many PGA (club) pros that have grown up on the course, having pictures of them all in the clubhouse.



We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Howard Riefs

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 04:47:23 PM »
For all of Dye's success in North America, I don't hear much about his designs in the other continents.

What are his best courses in Europe and Asia? 

http://dyedesigns.com/golf/courses/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Matt Kardash

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 05:09:08 PM »
That's because outside the domincan republic Pete Dye has only worked in America. Any course that bears his name outside the US or the Dominican are works of either his sons or associates.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Ross Harmon

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2012, 05:33:11 PM »
Quote
Par 3, 4 and 5 in the last 3 holes.  The finisher is at an an angle around a pond or other hazard that serves the same function.  Often the 9th is on one side of the pond and the 18th on the other.

Some merit to this one.... in fact, I'd go further and guess that just about every Pete Dye course I've ever seen, the 16th was a par-five or long par-four, the 17th was always a dramatic par-three, and the 18th was always a long par-four with water.

There are exceptions I'm sure, but at least 90% of his most notable courses would have to finish this way.


I've read somewhere that Pete said he considers the 5-3-4 to be the best finish in golf.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2012, 06:03:22 PM »
That's because outside the domincan republic Pete Dye has only worked in America. Any course that bears his name outside the US or the Dominican are works of either his sons or associates.

Well, that would explain it. Thanks, Matt.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Bart Bradley

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2012, 06:33:29 PM »
As another Indiana native, I have played quite a number of Dye's course over the years.  Like Scott, I admire most of Pete's lower profile/lower budget courses.  I played Eagle Creek more than 100 times in medical training. 

I think Pete pushed limits...of all sorts.  Some of those risks paid off nicely.  Some don't quite work.  I believe he is a born risk taker. 

I believe Alice is critical to his success. 

I believe Pete has gotten a pass for the some of the worst use of water hazards on otherwise distinguished courses than any other architect (Whistling Straits, the Honors, Island Greens (TPC Sawgrass, PGA West). 

I believe he helped spawn the new golden age (perhaps was the main impetus). 

I believe most golfers find his most well known designs to be too hard and not that fun.  I believe that he has been asked to create original "championship" golf more often than any modern architect.

Freeform musings...

Bart

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2012, 06:59:13 PM »
The ironic thing about Mr. and Mrs. Dye is that without them we wouldn't have the Doak/Hanse/C&C/etc minimalist movement.

I may not love all of the Dye's work, but there's no doubt that they're the most important golf course architects after 1950.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2012, 07:00:56 PM »
That's because outside the domincan republic Pete Dye has only worked in America. Any course that bears his name outside the US or the Dominican are works of either his sons or associates.

Any idea why Pete hasn't worked outside of the US or Dominican?  

As one of the greatest architects of the modern era, is this a knock on his resume?
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ross Harmon

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2012, 07:22:00 PM »

Any idea why Pete hasn't worked outside of the US or Dominican?  


As everyone knows, Pete always wants to spend a good deal of time on each project, but doesn't necessarily "move" there, so it's more of just a travel/ logistical challenge than anything. He's left the big overseas travel to Perry, P.B., Cynthia and other associates, although he does typically visit those projects a couple of times - just not the dozens of times he typically does on his personal projects. I know recently Pete has been to Israel, Guatemala and Honduras to see the Dye projects that have recently opened in those countries though, so he does get around. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2012, 07:24:44 PM »
Got to follow Pete around a remodel project one day.  Member asks what is he going to do on a particluar hole.  Pete wanders up to look from the tee, from far left, far right, clubhouse, etc.  Tells the guy (who is really ready to leave) that he is still thinking on all the factors.

After the guy leaves, he draws what he already plans in the dirt, but tells me it gets guys off his back, and looks more impressive to make it look hard, rather than easy, to make up his mind.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Connor

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Re: Free-form Pete Dye Discussion
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2012, 10:11:33 PM »
Forgot about Eagle Creek -- I played that the morning I got married!

We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson