Interview with Bill Love - Olympic Club and more

[Carl Nichols]

The course just beats you up.  For anyone over a 7 handicap, your highlight of the day is to make 1 or 2 pars and shoot 92?  A 3 to 7 handicap tries to break 80?  

Wasn't this true before the recent changes? How much harder are 7 and 8 now, 1/4 stroke total?  Do you think Love (or the greenskeeper) should've been striving to make the course easier?

It's not just 7 and 8 although 8 is much harder.  It's almost every hole, especially the first 6. #5 from the backs is a ball buster.  #1 playing as a par 4 is almost unthinkable for the average guy.  #16 playing close to 700 yards. 

But those are nothing more than new back tees, right?  Was Love really going to get in the way of that train (see, e.g., Merion)?  And You certainly aren't blaming him for the USGA's decision to play a par 5 as a par 4, right?

Note -- I have no view on the changes (haven't seen them) or the inside baseball on how they were allowed to happen (no relevant knowledge). I just think the argument that what happened is wrong because it made an already hard US Open course a bit harder doesn't really work.

[David_Tepper]

Joel S. -

It is funny you show a picture of the par-3 #6 hole at Royal Dornoch, as that is one of several holes that were built and added to the course after WWII. If the course was ever "restored" to its "Golden Age" version, when Donald Ross and Joyce & Roger Wethered strode its fairways, that hole (as well holes #7, #8, #9, #10 & #11) would have to be taken out of play.

P.S. Royal Dornoch has built back tees on several holes over the past 5 years.

DT

[Jay Flemma]

Yes, Bill, but a cart path is a hang nail, not a coronary artery.  A couple days and a few bucks and it's fixed.

LOL, when do you think that will happen?

When enough people get sick of it:)

[Sean_A]

"Having not seen Olympic, but knowing the respect that many had for the old 7th and 8th holes"

JNC Lyon -

Had you ever played the Lake Course, I doubt you would be mourning the passing of the 8th hole. It was a 130-150 yard uphill par-3 to a totally blind green fronted by a yawning bunker.

It was 1 of 3 blind par-3's on the course, which I have always thought was a design weakness. In theory, one could have 3 holes-in-one in a single round but not see any of them actually drop into the cup. Isn't 99% of the thrill of making an ace the chance to see the ball disappear?

If nothing else, the new 8th does allow much of the green surface to be seen from the tee, even though it is still an uphill shot. That in itself is a big improvement.

DT 
 

David

I hope I never read a justification for altering a hole is to see holes in 1.  Thats as bad as it gets. 

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

Was the walk from 7 to 8 really increased 175 yards?

[David_Tepper]

"I hope I never read a justification for altering a hole is to see holes in 1.  Thats as bad as it gets."

Sean -

I have nothing against blind shots. You know I love playing at Golspie, which has blind shots into 5 greens. It is interesting that only 1 of the 5 par-3's is a blind hole.

I do think one of the thrills in golf is watching a shot scare the hole on a par-3. I have been lucky enough to make a few aces and to see a few more made. It is a thrill for the guy who makes it and for the rest of the group. When I won a car for making an ace, the guys in my group were more excited about it than I was.    

Three of the four par-3's on the Lake Course were essentially blind greens. While the blindness of #8 was not the sole or even primary reason the hole was changed/moved, I do think the visibility the new green has makes it a better hole.

DT   

[Kevin_Reilly]

Was the walk from 7 to 8 really increased 175 yards?

No.  Google Earth shows the distance from #7 to the back tee (the black/championship tee) at #8 at 170.  It is 125 to the front tee and 150 to the usual blue tee location.  The previous distances were 45 yds and 65 yds.  So the change is 80 yds to the front and 105 yds to the back tee. 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Thanks Kevin. David, the distance from 7 green and in full view cart path are the real weak points to the new 8th hole. The hole itself is great. There is nothing to be done about the distance. The angle and trees framing the hole are part of its greatness. The cart path is another discussion since it is seen from the clubhouse and all points in between. David Tepper I could not agree more on blind shots and par 3 thoughts. Also by the by I do not think the USGA has hurt Olympic Lake. Although for a while during the incredibly idiotic St Augustine grass collars on the traps experiments, I was in doubt. I just think the pendelum has turned the last ten years where the demands are high enough over a long enough period of time to make some clubs rethink is it worth all the time and energy they take from a club, the Membership and its staff.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Kevin and Tiger.

[J Sadowsky]

Like Carl, I know little about the changes at Olympic or the politics that put Bill Love in charge, but Mr. Love has created a quite lovely muni here in DC (Laurel Hill).  I think the attacks on him more generally earlier in this thread were, to put it mildly, over the top.

[Jay Flemma]

The folks at Bellport are really happy with the Raynor restoration work he did there as well.  They said it looks like Raynor, which is one of the best compliments an architect doing a restoration can get.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Thanks Kevin. David, the distance from 7 green and in full view cart path are the real weak points to the new 8th hole. The hole itself is great. There is nothing to be done about the distance. The angle and trees framing the hole are part of its greatness. The cart path is another discussion since it is seen from the clubhouse and all points in between. David Tepper I could not agree more on blind shots and par 3 thoughts. Also by the by I do not think the USGA has hurt Olympic Lake. Although for a while during the incredibly idiotic St Augustine grass collars on the traps experiments, I was in doubt. I just think the pendelum has turned the last ten years where the demands are high enough over a long enough period of time to make some clubs rethink is it worth all the time and energy they take from a club, the Membership and its staff.

Tiger -

IMHO #8 is not a great hole, especially in the context of the Lake Course in its entirety. 
The green is too big when compared to rest of the greens on the property. 
It plays one club too long for regular play (t's basically the same club one hits on #3 and #13 [maybe one more or less depending on where the tee is and the wind]). 
The back bunker doesn't belong (it's really the only visible back bunker on the course save for the tippy-top of the back left bunker on #2).
The multiple, raised tee boxes (also installed over the past couple yrs. on #5, 9, and 12) are completely out of character with the lay-of-the-land tees found on the rest of the holes. 
It takes a LONG TIME to get to the tee from 7th green (I sat there once and timed groups' walk to the tee and it was like a minute-and-a-half+). 
The Cart Path is an absolute joke.  [/li][/list]


Other than that, it's a fine hole... and probably a decent hole on any number of courses found on any rankings list.  And, is it a great hole for a PGA Tournament?  Yeah, probabaly.  200+ yds. up hill... through a shoot... bunkers left, right, and back.   But again, it's a hole that one could, or more appropriately should, find at Quail Hollow or any TPC course the PGA or Nationwide Tour plays throughout the year. In fact, i just got back from playing Victoria National, which is a very good (and VERY DIFFICULT) Fazio, and this hole would've fit in perfectly there. 

Was #8 too short?  I don't think so... think of all the great short holes that have been dicsussed ad nauseum on this site.  Was it too blind?  I can see the point of not wanting to have half of your four par-3's be uphill, blind, short-iron shots.  But, it worked.

Again, these are just my opinions and may or may not represent those of other members or of the membership as a whole.

[Jay Flemma]

What about the rest of the work, Wayne? How do you feel about the job overall?  By both Love and the USGA?

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

What about the rest of the work, Wayne? How do you feel about the job overall?  By both Love and the USGA?

Been too busy managing two 5 yr. olds, so haven't been out to the course in since Feb., and that was too early too tell what the changes (i.e. new short grass/chipping areas around greens, new fairway mowing patterns (i.e. #14), new tees (i.e. #16, #17) were going to look like in their full glory.  I realize these specific changes/additions, which also inlcude the new and to-be-removed bunker on #17, are purely for this once-every-15 yr. tournament for the best of the very best golfers. 

So, i can take these with an understanding that if the club is willing to be beholden, the USGA either directly or indirectly charts a certain course for how the course should look and play... i.e. long and difficult.  I, personally, hope that those changes fade away once the Open has left, e.g. Fairway on #14 regains its original width and shape on the right side which has been turned into rough for the tourney.

Now, the changes made by or under the aegis of Bill Love are different as they impact regular member play.  And frankly, i think all-in-all are a complete, um, hatchet job.  The most egregious is the new #7 and #8... they don't fit at all with the other 16 holes on the course... in look, in the way they're bunkered, the way the greens are shaped, the way they flow into the other holes, the variety of shots they offer.  Nothing about these two holes says "welcome to the Olympic Club".  And the same can be said for number of other individual items, which taken as a whole, really start to distort the sense of place that the Lake course has enjoyed over the years.

Yes, they've removed a number of trees which has done loads to help the turf.  But, they've already begun planting - and i mean heavy re-planting - in areas that will once again result in shaded areas leading to thin turf (e.g. the 6 or 7 new pines planted in a nice, neat straight line to the right of #4 green).

New teebox complexes, because that's what they are, of multiple, square, raised teeing areas on #5, #9, #12, and #8 are completely out of character with the "lay of the land" tee boxes that have been in place for a long time... if not forever then at least since RTJ got his mitts on the course in the early '50s.  If i wanted multiple teeing options, i'd go play Wente Vineyards... what i want is the same course over and over and over... that's why i joined the damn place.  If i wanted options, I would've saved my money and just played various public courses each week-end.

Bunkers are mishaped in terms of the overall look and play of the course (e.g. the reworked fairway bunker on #6 is silly.  It's the only one on the course where the fairway is cut so ball roll into it, which i think is cool in general but is inconsistent with all other bunkers on teh course.  And if you're in the bunker, the lip has been lowered and provides a "ramp" like effect.  Not going to by any problem for the pros and doesn't provide any issue for any good player that i've seen in there.

The new bunkering on the reworked short #7 makes no sense.  They're too big, and out of scale with the hole let alone the course itself.  And, while the green was originally two-tier, they eliminated a very good, fun 3-tier green, and installed a cliff more than a ridge. 

There are a lot of other things I would do if I were "king of Olympic"... fairway widening among.  But this is what i think about in terms of the USGA and Bill Love alterations.  With that said can't wait for the Ocean course to re-open
 

[Kevin_Reilly]

in areas that will once again result in shaded areas leading to thin turf (e.g. the 6 or 7 new pines planted in a nice, neat straight line to the right of #4 green)

I thought those were cypress plantings, and they are almost north of the #4 green and surrounds, so the only shade areas from these trees would be the area to the front of the tee on #5...which wouldn't seem to matter.

[Kevin_Reilly]

And generally, both Olympic and SFGC have assessed the ages of the cypress trees throughout the properties and plan for their eventual replacement.  That means plantings now to replace older trees that are approaching the end of their expected life.  That shouldn't be construed as a return to the forested days of the past.

[Jay Flemma]

BUt what feature does say welcome to Olympic Club? Isn't the defining feature the reverse camber?  And after that the greens?

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

And generally, both Olympic and SFGC have assessed the ages of the cypress trees throughout the properties and plan for their eventual replacement.  That means plantings now to replace older trees that are approaching the end of their expected life.  That shouldn't be construed as a return to the forested days of the past.

Kevin -

I'm assuming they're a conifer of some type.. pine, cypress, hemlock.  And, you probably are right that they won't shade the 4th green much as i originally opined.  Still, the openness of that area over the past couple years has been refreshing, but in the future it'll be like being inside a pillared courtyard.  Probably even more than it was in the past.  Just my two cents.

And, I do agree that new plantings are needed to replenish those aging trees once they've fallen; such as the area between the 4th and 5th fairways (at the bottom of the hill) I get that.  Moreover, i get that trees are part of the mystique of the course... and that needs to be maintained.  I just hope that we don't fail to learn from the past, and end up in say 25-30 yrs. from now over-treed choking the course of sun and airflow... if that's in fact important to the health of the turf (i honeslty don't know about the latter).

WW

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

BUt what feature does say welcome to Olympic Club? Isn't the defining feature the reverse camber?  And after that the greens?

yes, yes.  Plus, an intimate routing.  A scale that's more needle than hammer.    and the fog.  and the thick air.  sidehill lies.  and, of course the cheeseburger.

[Jay Flemma]

It will make for a particularly interesting Open I think.

plus I am still dying to try one of your burger dogs.  I've enjoyed the experimental ones I've made in my kitchen, but I must try the authentic:)

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Wayne I agree on what does say welcome to the Olympic Club as you mentioned. i also think when one hits the crest on 1 fairway and sees the Golden Gate Bridge on the horizon talks to you. Then when one looks down from 2 fairway and green to the course below you feel like something special is happening to you. That something special is an ongoing love affair till 7. I disagree on 8. I love the hole and have never found a tee that is anywhere near the same distance as 3. It can be the same at 13 if the pin is back and the tee is in the right place. But the holes are in completely different directions wind wise and do not play anything alike. I brought up the cart path which is a rookie mistake. Any architect knows how to address that. The tree line on 8 is part of what the hole special. Maybe you hit it so high the tees do not come into play but for my game it is a cool part of shot selection.  I find it sits on the course nicely and while the green is on the larger side. It frankly seems right to me for the length of shot called for. 3 green is too small from the back tee unless the wind is in your face. In general Olympics greens are small but also fit the holes well. The course is beautiful from the top of the hill or the clubhouse. The cart path issue from 7 to 8 needs to be fixed for it damages that incredible view.

[Jay Flemma]

Also, in the Confidential Guide, Tom called Oly, "one of the most claustrophobic driving tests in the world."  Has that now changed? If so, was it Love's work or the work of others?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is still tight feeling but tree work helped open things up a great deal. Those are big trees and rough is deep and tough. i do not know who made that call or what group made it.

[Jay Flemma]

Hey! I wonder if the burger dog is the reverse camber of clubhouse food

Mine came out great, especially when I added the long hots:0

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Clubhouse food is great. The Club is great. Members are great. Staff is great. It is one of the great clubs in America.