Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted

[TEPaul]

JC:

Tom Doak's post is very accurate---it depends on the club. Pine Valley has always led the list of significant clubs with scratch or low handicap players as it was created with the idea of being a course for champions. Merion was a little bit that way but not as much as PV. Seminole had a few but it wasn't really that way until the early 1990s (after the first Coleman) when it took in a whole lot of very good players. At first that was a bit controversial with the existing membership at the time but it all worked out well. As for most of those clubs previously being just for people of wealth please see about the second half of my last note (****) at the end of Part One. It wasn't only about how much money you had; it was about who you were.

Adam:

As far as tying in primogeniture to this question, I'm not sure what you mean. In America in that early WASP world primogeniture did not exist as it had with some of the ancestors of those people in the UK. The reason should be pretty obvious----basically the American contingent from that primogeniture world in the UK got rooked by primogeniture----they were not the eldest sons and had to go out in the world and make their way (even though they certainly had great connections, business and otherwise, from the UK). That's one of the main reasons they emigrated to America.

[Mike Sweeney]

Pine Valley has always led the list of significant clubs with scratch or low handicap players as it was created with the idea of being a course for champions.

It wasn't only about how much money you had; it was about who you were.

JC,

In a nutshell, don't worry. The letter is not coming!

[JC Jones]

Pine Valley has always led the list of significant clubs with scratch or low handicap players as it was created with the idea of being a course for champions.
It wasn't only about how much money you had; it was about who you were.

JC,

In a nutshell, don't worry. The letter is not coming!

I assure you there his no worry.  One has to want something to worry about it.  Pine Valley is of no interest to me.

[Dan Herrmann]

JC -"Pine Valley is of no interest to me"?     I'd try to stay indoors during any lightning activity

[JC Jones]

JC -"Pine Valley is of no interest to me"?     I'd try to stay indoors during any lightning activity

I suppose that is not entirely true, I do enjoy a "Fazio golf experience."

[archie_struthers]

 

Interesting sidebar  Ran, where you speak to the quality of the Androssan routing .  Certainly TEP's passion and knowledge of the game would have been a potent combination . On a great site , with time , and money, almost anything is possible.  

The question of recognition of a new golf course as "great" or top 10 ranking was recently posted.  No doubt it is achievable from a strictly physical sense, yet the politIcs of rankings is another story.

[Lester George]

Welcome back Tom.  I, for one, will start paying attention again because of your return.  Hope to see you soon.

Lester

[TEPaul]

Paul:

How Alison became connected with Pine Valley is of course not particularly clear but your thoughts (in #18) certainly are logical.

There are a number of references in the agronomy letters that lead to a logical scenario that involves a number of things including a potential partnership between Alison and Flynn and/or Alison and Toomey and Flynn (in 1919 Flynn actually went down to PV and worked on the agronomy, and perhaps the final design and construction of a few holes (#9, #14, #15 and #17?) for at least two or three months). This scenario with Alison and Flynn according to references in those agronomy letters seemed to cover at least three years (1919-1922).

And then of course there is that interesting letter from Colt to Wilson that is included in the agronomy letters. I’ll look it up again but I think it was in 1922. Colt wanted one of the USGA Green Committee’s (the forerunner to the USGA Green Section) bulletins (on agronomy).

At least from those agronomy letters it appears Hugh Wilson might have introduced Alison to PV or at least been with him when he may’ve first visited it in the end of 1920.

And there is no question at all that Hugh and Alan Wilson considered 'Capt. Alison' to be a very fine man. They went out of their way to write Piper and Oakley that Hugh Alison was definitely a ‘gentleman.’ One reason Wilson wrote Piper and Oakley about Alison is that he wanted to introduce Alison to Piper and Oakley apparently regarding the subject of agronomy but Alison had asked Wilson about a particular contract and project in Washington D.C.

It appears Hugh Wilson became PV’s green chairman after Crump died. Alison’s seminal hole by hole report to the so-called “1921 Advisory Committee” was offered to PV in the late winter of 1921 (March). Unfortunately, at that point, Hugh Wilson had gotten quite ill and took about a three month rest cure on the West Coast of Florida (Ussespa Island).

Pine Valley even put Alison on the committee as a member. They were truly hoping to get him to stay around to oversee the construction of the architectural recommendations he made but he could not be there because he was apparently opening an office in Detroit at that time.

[TEPaul]

PaulT:

It is interesting to me that no one much has apparently wanted to discuss the detailed hole by hole creation listing and report on PV in this Feature Interview. I wonder why that is even though I suppose it might be a good thing it hasn't been argued over ad infinitum. A friend of mine from Boston who has never participated on this website told me it was interesting to him but hard to follow without a really good knowledge of the course and its history.

Why don't you and I discuss it as I feel those thread discussions we had on it so many years ago were the best produced on here on the early days of PV; at least until a few of those threads devolved into some irrelevancies as some PV threads did more recently with about 100 pages of arguing over whether the contour lines were correct on Crump's survey maps or whether Tillinghast was lying with his PV train discovery story.

[Scott Warren]

Tom,

I must have read that part two or three times and tried to picture how some of Crump's original holes might have worked.

I would love to read any further exploration of that part of the interview.

[TEPaul]

“Tom,

   I must have read that part two or three times and tried to picture how some of Crump's original holes might have worked.
   I would love to read any further exploration of that part of the interview.”



Scott,


   I completely understand how hard it must be to visualize some of the details in that hole by hole routing and design evolution listing. If I didn’t know the course so well for so long on the ground I can’t imagine I’d be able to visualize much of it.
   Unfortunately, I’m not in the slightest bit tech-savy and I don’t even know how to post photos and drawings and such (thankfully others on GCA do) but there are a number of “assets” (routing maps etc) of the course that can explain those details if they are analyzed correctly.
   A number of years ago on a Pine Valley thread or two Paul Turner actually transposed Crump’s initial routing map on the so-called “Blue/Red Line” topo map which pretty much shows the course as built if one knows how to read it correctly. That’s important as those two topographical survey maps are duplicates of one another (before they were worked on by the various architects). To them one can add some other “assets” such as the Colt scheme that was a whole course drawing of his hole by hole design booklet.
   And to the foregoing one just has to put them all with other contemporaneous information into an over-all timeline and the most accurate story of the evolution and creation of the routing and hole designs as built begins to emerge.
                  I suppose this kind of thing might interest some with any significant course or architecture but the fact it's Pine Valley, the perennial #1 course in the country or even the world, makes it that much more interesting. And of course it is also unusual for any course or architecture as for one reason or another it actually took close to ten years to finally open all eighteen holes for play. That unique aspect of the creation and evolution of the course is probably largely attributable to one man alone----George Crump.

[Scott Warren]

Tom P,

Is this more or less the idea of Crump's early-1913 routing?

Full size: http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/3969/crumprouting.jpg

[TEPaul]

Scott:

Beautiful job transposing Crump's original stick routing over the existing course. There need to be a few minor tweaks with the placement of a few greens, tees and directions particularly in the 10-15 area but that's basically it. That will help anyone understand what the starting point in early 1913 and the ending point around 1922 was. Beautiful job!

And then by comparing and contrasting what you just did with Colt's routing which came next in the chronology (the map we bought off of Ebay some years ago), one can basically understand the holes Colt was responsible for in whole and in part.

[Scott Warren]

Thanks Tom. I suspected those placements from 10-15 were probably a bit sketchy. Without specific reference points to features on the existing course I knew I was poking around in the dark a bit, but it's interesting to see that plan on the ground.

I find Pine Valley a fascinating topic and story (Crump is all at once a heartbreaking and inspirational figure), so always keen to read and hear more.

[TEPaul]

"Without specific reference points to features on the existing course I knew I was poking around in the dark a bit, but it's interesting to see that plan on the ground."



Scott:

If you drew out that original Crump stick routing onto the aerial of the course just off my textual explanation in that Feature Interview you really did do a great job. However, it will be possible to get very specific reference points for all tees, directions and green sites from that original stick routing by scaling an overhead of the course to either of those orignal topo survey maps (duplicates of one another) and matching all the basic contour lines. That's the kind of thing Craig Disher is a genius at. But first those old contour lines on both Crump's original stick routing and the so-called "Blue/Red Line" topo will need to be reconstituted and highlighted because the fact is many of them have really faded with age.

The Colt routing map is actually a whole course depiction of his hole by hole design booklet and the blue lines on the "Blue/Red Line" topo map (the latter was obviously in use and used from May/June 1913 right until very near the end of Crump's life in Jan 1918). The Colt whole course map does not have contour lines on it.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I don't have a lot of time to go through in detail...but a couple of points.

I think the stick diagram 16th hole green site is well short of the current green.  Look how far it's from the rail tracks and compare with the blue/red map and/or a modern one.  

And then the 17th tee on the stick diagram is sited where the 16th green is on the blue/red map (the final site).

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Some of the details on Crump’s stick routing are a bit hard to analyze without enhancing a number of details. You did an overlay of it on the blue/red line topo and assuming you had everything lined up correctly it should show various and different feature positions (green and tee and direction) and different hole iterations in varying degrees.

In my opinion, the original stick routing was probably only in use for a couple of months (and it may’ve been partially the result of what Crump and friends did on the ground before a topo survey map of the property was available (March, 1913)) while the blue/red line topo was in use for over four years. There are also a number of green and tee position changes on the stick routing and a lot of cross-outs. #6 green was moved a number of times on the stick routing map and one can see an extension line drawn through the 16th green. The circle for #16 green on the stick routing may've been shorter but the extension line is probably where it was built unless Crump intended to build a green with fill into the swamp/lake which I doubt. One reason I doubt that is the present green is considered to be the only green that was completely natural. The archives refer to it as PV's only completely "natural green."

The original stick routing has so many changes on it I can understand why Crump apparently broke out a duplicate early on; probably at the time Colt showed up in May/June 1913.

[V. Kmetz]

TEP,

It's your old pal Vinnie Kmetz here.  We'll speak soon.  Just a PV question for you or anybody.

I've only visited the course once, and  have followed it in voluminous pictorial and writing pieces, including the overlay that was done here (for instance).

How is it that PV has avoided problems of both air flow and sunlight in some of these green sites (especially) but in all managed turf areas?

I realize the club has impetus and resources enough to address many problems that kill other places, but how have they gotten around that?  I think I see some "breeze/light ways" cut to the east of a few greens (like #5 for instance) but by and large the corridors are encased by the eponymous pines and other growth.

any thoughts

cheers

vk

[archie_struthers]

 

Vinnie,

You've identified part of your answer. Resources , both intellectual and financial, are possessed in abundant qualities there. Pine Valley has  a history of fabulous superintendents over the years , in my time beginning with Eb Steiniger.  You also have to give great credit to enlightened patriarchs like Ernie Ransome , who hired a real maverick named Dick Bator in the late 70's who thru force of will and an incredible knowledge of poa annua  set many of the turf mamagement programs that remain today in motion.  His successor Pat Gertner  and current steward Rick Christian are outstanding superintendents in their own right , and no doubt would credit Bator for laying a strong groundwork for their success.

Rutgers , Penn State and U.Mass have all supplied many quality employees to the maintenance staff , as working here is akin to going to Wharton Business , or say Princeton.  Lots of quality at all levels of this staff and they watch for the first sign of disease, and control the H2O!!!!

Pin Valley drains remarkably well, and the sandy soil certainly helps.  Years ago they cut holes (windrows) in the pines that line the fairways, akin to firebreaks , to help air circulation. There are more than a few well placed fans hidden around the greens., though you almost never hear them in action.  

That's a start on why.  I also would surmise the lack of cart traffic help the fairways immensely, not to mention all the co2 the caddies spew out daily lol!    

[TEPaul]

Vinnie:

Archie mentioned a few reasons why PV might be a bit unique with avoiding airflow and shade problems with their turf but they are not immune to it. Some greens did suffer from that condition or potentially could have such as the left 9th and perhaps the 14th but they dealt with it as any intelligent maintenance department would---they opened it up some to greater airflow and less shade.

[TEPaul]

Vinnie:

As I believe they should be, PV has generally been quite quiet about some of the things they do with their golf course. So, I'm not sure of it, but I suppose it's possible that recently they have put some mechanisms under a green or two sort of like ANGC has with some of their greens like the 12th.

I'll tell you, Vinnie, I think there is so much stuff going on underneath the 12th green at ANGC that you and I might be quite happy spending the weekend under there. They have all kinds of sophisticated heating and cooling and moisture reduction systems under there. I think they also have rec rooms with pool and ping pong tables and such. They may even have a bar, a big flat screen TV and computer hook ups under that green. If they would let us spend a weekend under there and you brought a couple of your girls down from NYC you and I could be some wild and crazy guys for a weekend or so.

[JMEvensky]

I'll tell you, Vinnie, I think there is so much stuff going on underneath the 12th green at ANGC that you and I might be quite happy spending the weekend under there. They have all kinds of sophisticated heating and cooling and moisture reduction systems under there. I think they also have rec rooms with pool and ping pong tables and such. They may even have a bar, a big flat screen TV and computer hook ups under that green. If they would let us spend a weekend under there and you brought a couple of your girls down from NYC you and I could be some wild and crazy guys for a weekend or so.

Georgia has some unfriendly smoking policies--you should probably check first.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom,

About the 12th at ANGC. Isn't Clifford Roberts buried beneath that green along with the sub air mechanicals, the atomic bomb shelter and the ANGC Board Room and kitchen so that those pimento cheese sandwiches can be available to you and Vinnie for your wild weekend?

[archie_struthers]

 


TEP.   14 green defitele has sub -air,  to the best of my knowledge 12 does not.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Archie,

All greens at ANGC have sub-air:

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/apr/05/augustas-greens-secrets-magic-carpet-ride/?print