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Ran Morrissett

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Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« on: May 03, 2012, 08:17:52 AM »
The responses came in fast and furious from Part I with Tom Paul. As Tom and I hoped, they ranged all over the place from Vinnie Kmetz's passionate take to this one from the north shore of Boston:

In the big picture, it's discouraging that so many of today's young don't have a clue about what went on 50, 75, 100, 150 years ago in this country - how VERY important all that stuff was. Not just industrially, or politically, but also socially. And how very intertwined it all was. Sad...
 
I certainly agree that gentleman’s sentiments and any student of architecture needs to appreciate the big picture i.e. how ‘intertwined’ everything is. For instance, without doing so, one might not understand why Alister MacKenzie left the stunning California coastline for a flat piece of ground beside some polo fields outside of Buenos Aires in 1930. Also, FYI, as further evidence to the marvelous twists and turns that the discussion of golf course architecture can take, Tom and Vinnie are now jointly working on an IMO piece to share with us later in the summer.
 
One of the highlights of Part I was how Tom personalized everything and Part II starts off in much the same manner with his account of one of the darkest days in American history. Tom was actually in Northern Ireland that September and the kindness that was shown to the traveling Americans that day is touching. Part II then shifts into architectural high gear around greater Philadelphia’s two cornerstones of design, Merion and Pine Valley.

In regards to the Merion wars that have occurred on GolfClubAtlas.com, one of the battles centered around who routed Merion. Some, like me, feel that routing a course is unbelievably complex, be it over densely covered land like Cape Breton Highlands or on open land like the Sand Hills. On such expansive properties, hundreds of permutations exist. Indeed, right now, I am feebly attempting at the behest of the host to route a five hole course on an historic estate for a black tie whiffle ball event next weekend – what a looming disaster this is turning into! How can one possibly string one after another hole together and not end up with a dud one here or there over eighteen holes? Therefore, the odds that amateurs like Crump or Wilson could pull a rabbit out of their hat with their respective brilliant routings seems borderline preposterous. Intuitively, I support that camp’s position.
 
HOWEVER, Tom never has and after reading Part I, we now appreciate why. Simply put, Tom was in the luxurious position of spending beaucoup time on the Ardrossan property, and he succeeded in routing a course that was superlative to what a couple of professional architects did based on their limited time on the site. I say this having seen Tom’s routing myself X years ago. An amateur came through big time. Tom’s own personal experience suggests/confirms that Wilson and Crump were capable of accomplishing what they are indeed given credit for. Our personal experiences shape how we see the world so who can blame Tom for maintaining that point of view?!
 
In an exciting turn, Tom goes on to write about the evolution of Pine Valley. This is the most detailed account I have read in a single place. Just like anything posted on this web site, certain people are bound to take exception with it. And to that Tom says FINE. Perhaps someone else who saw the same things might draw a different conclusion here or there. In fact, the same can be said of some of my all time favorites articles hosted on GolfClubAtlas.com including Tom MacWood’s Arts and Crafts Golf, David Moriarty’s The Missing Faces of Merion and Bob Crosby’s Joshua Crane in the Golden Age. The important thing is that Tom has taken the time and effort and then elected to share his take with us. It is a great starting point from which to base (civil! 8)) discussions.
 
One thing I know for sure: Pine Valley is a subject extremely near and dear to Tom’s heart and he has had access to gobs of material that few others have – or will – ever have. His lengthy descriptions are clearly his best/most earnest efforts at assimilating that information. Just as no design has provoked more written word in the UK than St. Andrews, no course was more a think tank for superlative architecture than Pine Valley. To understand its evolution is at the heart of the best of American golf course architecture. We are extremely fortunate that Tom has elected to share this information on GolfClubAtlas.com. He certainly didn’t have to and you certainly won’t find it anywhere else. It is the sharing of such information that helps keep GolfClubAtlas.com both fresh and special.
 
Finally, Part II wraps up with (of course!) Tom walking us through the development of his coined phrase Ideal Maintenance Meld (IMM). To me, it should read IMM* copyright TEPaul 2005-2012. In fact, he and I were talking yesterday about the term ‘minimalism’ and how it may well be that Ron Whitten first coined it. Ideal Maintenance Meld has become a well known phrase in its own right and we are talking directly with its inventor. Again, how Tom personalizes its derivation with stories like his twenty stroke  :o swing at the Coleman makes for a great read.
 
And speaking of reading, I have asked Tom to re-join the Discussion Group and he has accepted, so you will be reading more of his writing on a go forward basis. The sheer number of postings won’t be as voluminous as before (at least he and I both hope so  ;)) but the passion will no doubt ring through just as it does in Part I and II of his Feature Interview. Everyone please welcome back Tom Paul!

Cheers,

PCCraig

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 08:35:37 AM »
Welcome back Tom Paul!
H.P.S.

Eric Smith

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 12:14:11 PM »
Indeed! Welcome back sir. Or is it, Sir?

David_Elvins

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 07:16:59 PM »
Thanks Ran,  I look forward to reading part 2 next year, after I have finished part 1. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tim Martin

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 08:53:52 PM »
TEP- Part II was really interesting and informative. Glad you are back. :)

JNC Lyon

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 01:13:07 AM »
Will Tom Paul returning to the discussion group help to stave off the annual "has GCA jumped the shark" thread?  I hope so!  Welcome back!
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

PThomas

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 09:55:37 PM »
glad you're back TP
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2012, 08:39:59 AM »
Thank you Tom and Ran for an illuminating sequel to Part 1. There is no question that "amateur" golf architects could craft an outstanding course; ESPECIALLY if they were/are wise enough to seek collaboration with other intelligent folks having the required knowledge or professional experience to support their mission.

Though I've heard Tom fondly recount that story to me of his 20 shot turnaround at Seminole, I'm VERY glad he included it in this article. While Tom deserves full marks for hitting the shots that delivered that fine round, it provides yet another OBVIOUS example of how a quality caddie can GREATLY aid a golfer...EVEN one who knows the course and is a quality player. And that caddie didn't even read a green for Tom!

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2012, 09:52:34 AM »
Kris:

I expect to be discussing caddies and caddying a lot when I get this discussion with Vinnie Kmetz together.

I wish I could remember the name of that caddy I had the second day of that first Coleman Tournament. He was vaguely familiar to me because I think he did some caddying up here or somewhere else, maybe for Sigel.

In my years of tournament golf I had only two caddies. In the beginning it was JR. For the last twenty years of my tournament career it was Mike DiGangi.

Guys like you and Vinnie would completely understand when I tell you it took me about two minutes to figure out that guy was really good I had the second day of the Coleman with that twenty shot swing. He just had that ineffable “thing” about him you guys would understand. He was calm, he was quiet and he just had all those little moves and nuances some tournament golfers can pick up on in a New York second in a really good caddy. I’m also pretty visual with people (like physiognomy) and I tend to pick up on that kind of stuff (I learned a lot of it in my young life in the bars of NYC from this Svengali-like character we all knew).

But when we got going it was one of those “Nu, Nu, Nu, Na, Na, Na” things most remember from Chevy in Caddyshack. It was sort of like he was doing it and I was just pulling the string.

And at the end of the day when the last putt went in for a two under par 70 and a twenty shot swing (I think my round was not just a twenty shot swing it was also the lowest round of the day in the field----we actually had a bit of an audience in the last few holes) there was no real celebrating or even talking----it was just that sort of look between us, as if to say----“Do you completely understand what we just did together and why?”

Golf and particularly tournament golf is just so cool and at least half of it involves something that begins with a C.

George Pazin

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2012, 11:55:24 AM »
Welcome back, Tom. Haven't had a chance to read part II yet, but I'm headin' there now.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark McKeever

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2012, 03:34:46 PM »
Welcome back Tom!  Looking forward to reading through part 2.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Stewart Naugler

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2012, 10:32:24 PM »
The best news I've heard in sometime! Welcome back Tom!

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2012, 10:46:04 AM »
Tom.

Thanks for expanding on the sub plot. What I find worth noting, and my fond wish is that others do as well...is that NOT ONE LITTLE MICRON of satisfaction that you clearly derived from that round was LOST... because you had a caddie PARTNERING to help you tack around the track  that day! In fact, I would assert that the teamwork, and innate understanding of how YOU got there, TOTALLY ENRICHED the round. You may not have won the tournament that day, but I doubt you, that caddie, or many others there that day at Seminole will ever forget what you BOTH had a hand in accomplishing.

Good to have you back in the saddle!

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2012, 11:11:12 AM »
I just got an email from a participant on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com (who I used to speak with and collaborate with on subjects to do with the Rules of Golf) that truly does show in clear relief what a small world golf can be as well as the small fates of life we may never be aware of until many years later, if at all.

The first question in Part Two of that interview was about where I was and the experience of the day of 9/11/2001. I was at Royal County Down, Newcastle, Northern Ireland. Even though I did not know him at the time it turns out this participant on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com could not have been more than a few groups behind mine that day when we found out what happened in America. He even looked at the same little television high on the corner of the wall in the pro shop I looked at to first learn what had happened. He even walked the boulevard I did afterward! Did we see each other, did we say hello or speak? We will never know.

I said in that interview that one of my lasting sentiments was that unfortunate and tragic day was couched in golf, something that had been so important in my family's life and in mine. He told me today in that email that he had some of the same sentiments and to think we may've been only feet apart although we did not know one another then.

What a world; what a game.

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2012, 11:31:44 AM »
Although I did not mention it in that interview, regarding how small and interweaving golf may be, I should say the following as well.

We were at Royal Port Rush playing a match for a few days just before 9/11 and before driving down to Newcastle and Royal County Down. I was having lunch with my team and the Royal Port Rush team in the dinningroom of the clubhouse. Next to us was a rather large table of Irishman having lunch. Throughout their entire lunch they were talking about GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and they even mentioned the names of some on it including me. A few from my team heard them mention my name and they asked me if I knew them and how. I said I had no idea who they were and that they were talking about this website on golf architecture I participated on. They asked me to go introduce myself to them but I said I thought I'd just let it go. Later that day one of my team saw one of those guys from that other table and he told him about it. The Irishman came over and grabbed me and hauled me into another room and introduced me to those other guys. They were so amazed.

What a world; what a game!

Bill_McBride

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2012, 06:01:25 PM »
There are a lot of golf travel stories around 9/11.   Our good friend, Tiger Bernhardt, was in the air returning from Scotland when all hell broke loose, and his flight was diverted to Newfoundland where I think he was stuck for a week.   Apparently the good people of that part of Canada really took care of these stranded Americans.  I think some strong bonds were formed.  I'm sure Tiger could really tell the story!

Dale Jackson

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2012, 08:50:55 PM »
Tom has cryptically mentioned my email to him regarding our shared experiences on 9/11.  For those who might be interested in coincidences, I reproduce a slightly edited version below.

Good day Tom, it is a pleasure to have you back on GCA.  Your contributions have been missed, as have the occasional conversations we had regarding the impact of the rules on golf architecture and other things golf.  I read with interest and then incredulity about your 9/11 experiences and here is why.

On 9/11 I too was playing golf.  On the 17th green a friend came and told us what had happened and I recall clearly my first words - "The world has just changed forever".  We completed our round and went into the pro shop and so my first glimpse of the carnage was on a small TV high in the corner of the pro shop, I was also at Royal County Down that day.

There were five in our traveling group and we ended up in another clubhouse watching the television for most of the afternoon.  In addition to the obvious human tragedy and vast political implications, my wife and I had a distant but personal connection with the events.  We had been in New York that May and on the last day of our visit had gone to the World Trade Centre.  It was a damp and grey day and the towers were enshrouded in fog.  Despite the conditions, we went up to the top and it was deserted, virtually the only people about were staff and they had nothing to do in the absence of any tourists.  We spent much of the time talking with some of them.  When the towers came down, we could not help but wonder if any of our new found friends from that May day were among the dead, I suspect the answer must have been yes.

I do not know if you and I crossed paths that day, it was somewhat chaotic, but Newcastle is not a large town, and as you note in your interview, Americans were fairly obvious (although I am Canadian, over there we are regarded as one and the same).  I too wandered that road in front of the golf club for a bit.   It seems entirely possible we did pass one another.

One last connection; that night we had dinner in a hotel dining room, I do not recall which one, it may well have been the Slieve Donard.  The main dining room was full and they put us in another room, one obviously not used frequently.  There were two groups in the room, the five of us and a group of, as I recall, 8 Americans.  I wonder if it was your group?

The world can be a small place and, in my experience, that is especially true of the game of golf. As I read your 9/11 experiences, it quite literally made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.  I will always recall vividly were I was on 9/11, just as I will for the day JFK was murdered.  To have this connection with you and your experiences that day adds to the otherworldliness of the event.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Jay Flemma

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2012, 09:40:52 AM »
***singing***

Yeah we tease him a lot
Cause we got him on the spot
Welcome back...
(Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVS3WNt7yRU
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Paul_Turner

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2012, 08:14:06 PM »
Tom

I enjoyed the read.

Re Alison and the Pine Valley committee.  After thinking it through, I'm inclined to think that Alison approached Pine Valley rather than vice-versa.  The reason I think this, is because there are Alison reports on other Colt courses from about the same time:  Toronto(Colt 1911) has an Alison redesign report from Oct 1920 and Hamilton GC has one too (Colt 1914).

After WW1 Colt clearly wanted to establish a permanent US base for his firm "Colt, Alison and Mackenzie";  Colt himself was too busy and entrenched in the UK/Europe and so sends Alison who works in the US through the entire 1920s.  

And for Alison where is the logical place to start reestablishing the firm?  Colt's pre WW1 designs.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 08:16:06 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2012, 09:53:22 PM »
My God is it good to hear from you again, Paul Turner!

I think I spent thirty years with PV and perhaps the last fifteen trying to consider the truth and facts of its architectural evolution. I think you've only been there once or twice and I believe you picked up in that time more than I learned in any ten years!

Let me have a little time to consider what you said in that last post and I will try to provide some info and timeline documentations that will reflect on it.

JC Jones

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2012, 04:39:52 PM »
Well, I had given up on this website as one can only handle so much pontification from latter day saints.  But, now that Tom Paul is back, I guess I'll have to come around more often.

Tom,

Have membership requirements changed in your lifetime?  It seems to me that once upon a time, wealth and class were the barrier to entry whereas now, handicap seems to be.  Is my perception your understanding of reality?

edit:  I certainly understand the presence of the well playing jongleur who has always been able to get inside the gates of the castle, but I'm wondering of the exception is now the rule.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 04:52:03 PM by JC Jones »
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Adam_Messix

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2012, 05:50:50 PM »
Tom--

I look forward to you answer to Jason's question.  While doing so, you glanced upon the English primogenitor during Part I of your interview.  I think it would add to your answer if you were able to tie that in.  
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 04:27:01 AM by Adam_Messix »

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2012, 06:58:20 PM »
JC:

I'm not sure I understand your question.

JC Jones

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2012, 07:31:56 PM »
Has being a scratch golfer replaced wealth/class as the primary means to attaining membership in many old clubs?

I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Feature Interview with Tom Paul Part II is posted
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2012, 09:15:41 PM »
Has being a scratch golfer replaced wealth/class as the primary means to attaining membership in many old clubs?



JC:

That depends on the club.  Being a low-handicap golfer has always helped the cause at getting into clubs like Seminole or Oakmont or Pine Valley.  Not so much at Fishers Island or Cypress Point or SFGC, though.

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