[Kalen Braley]

If you look close, you can see what appears to be the pin on 6 green...which would disprove that its 10 because the bunker would clearly be visible, and that green shape in no way resembles the original 10th green.

[Kalen Braley]

Another pic...the red circle shows approx where the picture was taken from, and would explain why that front bunker would be hidden from view from the angle of that picture.

[Kalen Braley]

One last set of data points.

In this picture, you can still see to this day a fairly noticeable gap in the trees between 6 and 5.  And its still surrounded by fairly thick forest/trees.




However, in this pic between 10 and 18, there are no gaps, and the trees are far more sparse/thin/spread-out compared to the original picture, in addition to there not being an elevation change.

[Alex Miller]

I don't buy that the elevation is higher, or moreover significantly higher in the background. Since this photo is shot at a downhill angle, the grass before the trees on the right in the foreground looks even, or possibly at higher elevation than the grass through the gap in the trees. That actually does fit with the 10th hole, as does the nature of the land dropping dramatically to the left instead of eventually rising (as it would if it were the 6th hole).

As for the flag, it's inconclusive to me so I'm still trying to figure it out by the surrounding topography/tree coverage.

EDIT: Just saw your last two pictures. There was a gap in the old aerial on the 10th so the picture of the current forestation does nothing for me.

Your first picture showing the gap in the trees between 5 and 6 is promising, though I think overall the evidence still favors it being hole 10.

[Sven Nilsen]

I'll concede it could be 6/7 with 5 in the background, but the early photos of that area that I've seen don't seem to have the same tree set up that this photo shows.  Also, there was a creek in front of 6 that is not evident in the photo (noting that you suggest we're looking at 6 from behind and from the right), perhaps hidden by the terrain or is out of the picture to the left.  There was also pronounced "buried elephant" on the back right side of the green which does not appear in this photo, especially if there is a pin noted where you suggest one is.

As for the examination into if this is the 10th, my suggestion is that the photo was taken approximately 30 or 40 yards short of the Mac bunker from the left side of the fairway.  If you draw a line diagonally across the fairway (across where the old green would have been), the 18th fairway is no where near the end point.  What is on that line is the area around the 14th green and 15th tee.  How do the elevations work out if we try that analysis?  Its also possible that the angle is a bit more across the fairway than I suggested, in which case the background could be the 17th green and 18th tee.

In the two photos you put side by side, I actually think the copse of trees on the left of the gap looks remarkably similar in each picture.  The group on the right is a bit thinner, but I'm guessing there was a bit of time between when the two photos were taken.

[Sven Nilsen]

Realized that Maxwell did work on the 10th and the 6th, including removing the mound on 6.  So strike that from the list of arguments against the photo being from that location.

[Sven Nilsen]

http://03547c3.netsolhost.com/WordPress/2012/03/24/masters-countdown-sixth-hole/

The link above has an old photo of the 6th from the tee.  I can't reconcile this photo with what you are suggesting.

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Sven,

So I took a picture and drew a line as you described.  While the elevation differential works, I think the problem still exists that the MacK bunker would be clearly visible in the picture, which it is not.




Kalen

[Alex Miller]

I disagree with Sven's assessment as well.

This is what I was thinking and it aligns with the aerial from the previous page.



produces this view

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

Thanks for posting those two pics. 

I still think it works fine because in this case the 6th green with its humps and hollows would easily obscure the fronting bunker and creek that would undoubtedly be found below at a lower elevation.  Especially when you look at the angle in the original photo that Neil posted.  It almost looks like the camera is either sitting on the ground or the person taking the picture is set low in a crouch.  This would assist in making the bunker and creek being completely hidden in the photo.

[Sven Nilsen]

Alex:

I was thinking the same thing as well, which would help explain the small tree that is obviously creeping into the photo in the foreground on the right.  Could be one of the trees up on the hill to the left of the 10th tee.

The mounds on the edge of the fairway are kind of confusing.  They suggested to me green contours, especially combined with the shadowed area we discussed which is obviously not the shadow of a tree.  It seems to me that the dark area is the Mac bunker, which would suggest a photo taken much further down the fairway.

Its still a mystery.

Sven

[Alex Miller]

Sven,

Why do you think that the dark area is the Mac bunker? I am pretty convince that if it is indeed the 10th hole it's the shadows from the trees down the left side. Afternoon sunlight casts the whole fairway in shadows and since I see no white sand I believe this picture was taken from much closer to the tee. As for the tree in the foreground on the right, I am puzzled by it as well. Perhaps it was once adjacent to the 10th tee or between 10 and 18 that was later removed?

Alex

[Kalen Braley]

I would agree that Alex's last post with the two pictures is certainly the most compelling piece of evidence to suggest its the 10th hole.

However, there is another clue that would suggest otherwise.  It still doesn't explain this tree that would be in the middle of 10 fairway.  I've put a red circle around its branches.  If you look at the older aerial, there is no such type tree to be found anywhere on the 10th hole.  It seems to me, its more likely to have existed behind 6 green.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kalen:

Here's a recent photo of the 6th.  I have a hard time matching up the terrain on the left side of the hole from the tee.

[Alex Miller]

Kalen,

I agree that the tree is damning, however I'm afraid that the elevation evidence you posted for it being #6 actually makes a good case against it.

The 5th fairway sits at 250-256 ft elevation, and the 6th green is at 220-228 ft. Given how the photograph is composed, on first glance I might be able to accept that the background area you believe is the 5th fairway is 25 ft higher than the area that you think is the 6th, but looking at it more closely, the shot is definitely downhill, and given all of the space that is between the two areas (after all, the trees do not sprout up from the greens edge: there is definitely foreshortening) I can not accept that the background grassy area is higher than that in the foreground.

It's much easier for me to believe that we are discounting a tree or one has been removed than for the elevation to have changed that much.


One new wrinkle to add: there is space and grass behind the row of trees on the right that makes 0 sense if it were 5,6, and 7, but fits perfectly as the beginning of 18's fairway.

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

I agree its hard to compare those two pictures.

The first one is obviously taken directly behind the green looking back at the tee.  While the original one would have been taken from about 50 yards away from the green at a 45 degree angle shift from the back of the green towards 7 tee.  The foilage on the hillside between 5 and 6 and the angle of the slope seem to fit by what I see. (sans all the small bushes that have since grown in)

[Kalen Braley]

Alex I agree the shot is downhill as well.

If you go to the place on Google Earth where it would have been taken from, its certainly a good 10 feet higher than the green which appears to be 50 yards away.  (The old 7th tee shows an elevation of 232, and the green 222).

 I also think the angle of the shot is a bit misleading because it very much looks like the camera was on or very near the ground.  This would create an optical illusion that everything is much further away than it actually is...which would fit well with your interpretation from a few posts ago of it being a much longer shot down the length of 10.

I will agree that evidence is not conclusive, in either case....even though I still think I'm right!  

[Sven Nilsen]

I sent the photo on to David Owen (author of The Making of the Masters) and Daniel Wexler to get his thoughts.  Hopefully they are willing and able to shed some light on the mystery.

[Bryan Drennon]

I'm 100% sure it's the 10th hole looking down from in front of the tee. That tree on the right that everyone keeps pointing out is the giant oak that sits next to the 18th hole scoreboard. It still hangs so low at the left edge that you have to duck to walk under it. If you go to the masters website and watch the aerial flyover of the 10th hole, stop the video at between 3 and 4 seconds and you'll see that tree in almost the same position as the picture. Keep in mind that the video was obviously not shot from the ground (as the picture was). As you can see in the video, you still can't see the fairway bunker yet, even from a higher elevation. You can go to this link and click "aerial flyover" on the left hand side of the screen.
http://www.masters.com/en_US/course/holes/hole10.html

[Bryan Drennon]

Here's a screenshot of that flyover I was talking about. I think the angle of the other pic is going more to the right towards the oak. Watch the video if you can though. I think the video makes it a little clearer.

[Ben Sims]

Some interesting discussion points

--Humorous to see 18 (then 9) look so utterly the same as today's version.

--I like the shape of today's #3 better than the one in the aerial

--#15's fairway is insanely large

--The bunker on #14 is indeed spectacular, but is proof that the ODG's weren't perfect.  Its position is suspect IMO, and overly penal.

Ben:

Interesting thoughts on the old bunker on 14.  Would like to see the distances from the tee to clear it.  Designed to protect the ideal line into the green, if knocking it over the bunker was a possibility for longer hitters, it added a bit of a heroic nature to the hole.

Sven,

Yeah, that makes sense.  I would like to know that carry as well.  I know the fairway slopes left to right in the area, so I assume a bunch of balls would end up in the bunker that landed left of it.  Just seems a bit aggressive to stick that bunker there.

[Will Lozier]

I'm 100% sure it's the 10th hole looking down from in front of the tee. That tree on the right that everyone keeps pointing out is the giant oak that sits next to the 18th hole scoreboard. It still hangs so low at the left edge that you have to duck to walk under it. If you go to the masters website and watch the aerial flyover of the 10th hole, stop the video at between 3 and 4 seconds and you'll see that tree in almost the same position as the picture. Keep in mind that the video was obviously not shot from the ground (as the picture was). As you can see in the video, you still can't see the fairway bunker yet, even from a higher elevation. You can go to this link and click "aerial flyover" on the left hand side of the screen.
http://www.masters.com/en_US/course/holes/hole10.html

Agreed.  That tree is also visible in the pic from behind 10 green. 

Cheers

[Neil_Crafter]

If you look close, you can see what appears to be the pin on 6 green...which would disprove that its 10 because the bunker would clearly be visible, and that green shape in no way resembles the original 10th green.

Kalen
I have looked on the original photograph and that is definitely not a pin, it is a white mark on a tree.

I believe that through the base of the trees in the centre right you can definitely see a fairway, which must be the 18th. I think Alex alluded to this in his last post. Through the gap is what I think is the 17th fairway leading into the green.

My conclusion is that the shot is taken from around the start of the 10th fairway, or at least at the front of the tee.

Bryan gave the link to the Masters website and I found this shot of the 10th, presumably taken from the tee. The point of view is a little further left than the Maxwell pic, but not by much. The terrain appears identical to me and there are quite some similarities in the trees through the fairway, even 75 years on.

In Mythbusters terms, I'd say it was "Confirmed"  

[Dunlop_White]

Vintage pictures reveal that numerous greens at Augusta were surrounded by mounds. If you visually scan the topography from a remote perspective, these humps and bumps helped visually define the green surfaces by breaking up the topographical horizon line. It is my opinion -- based on the cluster of mounding -- that we are looking at a green feature here, and Hole 6 fits the bill. The chute and Hole 5 serve as a backdrop.

[Alex Miller]

Vintage pictures reveal that numerous greens at Augusta were surrounded by mounds. If you visually scan the topography from a remote perspective, these humps and bumps helped visually define the green surfaces by breaking up the topographical horizon line. It is my opinion -- based on the cluster of mounding -- that we are looking at a green feature here, and Hole 6 fits the bill. The chute and Hole 5 serve as a backdrop.

Dunlop,

While numerous greens may have been surrounded by mounds, it seems there is overwhelming evidence that it is not the 6th hole. I am with Bryan, Sven, and Neil in thinking that it is hole 10. My confidence has gone from ~80% to 99%.

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