Perry Maxwell photographs of Augusta National ca1938-39 - 3 MORE PHOTOS

[Alex Miller]

Neil,

I think you might be wrong on the second picture. Looks more like holes 2 and 8 to me.

[Alex Miller]

In the last picture is the chute near the top left 11 tee?

This was my thought as well, so we are looking at #10? I know the 11th tee used to be located much farther right, making it close to online with the old 10th green.

[Will Lozier]

Neil,

I think you might be wrong on the second picture. Looks more like holes 2 and 8 to me.

Ditto!

[Neil_Crafter]

In regards to the second photo, thanks for the tip Alex and Sam, it is certainly the 8th hole on the right, which would make the hole on the left the 2nd. here is a later photo of the 8th, the trees at the left appear the same.

As for the bottom photo, is this the outside of the dogleg on the 10th? In which case the 10th green would be out of shot to the left?

[Will Lozier]

Neil,

These are some of the most interesting photos I've ever seen - Thanks!  I drove by the club the other day on my way back from vacation - fascinating to think of the contrasting themes in terms of bunker appearance, etc. from then to now.

Cheers

[Chris Clouser]

This is more a reply to Ed Oden and not an attempt to hi-jack the thread. 

Ed,

I have a whole disc of photos that were part of the original collection that Neil's photos on this thread were a part of.  I will be putting something together soon that will show off some of Maxwell's original bunkering at Dornick Hills and several other courses.

Chris

[Neil White]

Neil,

That last photo looks as though it is the eighth green looking from the current first green or area adjacent to it.

Neil.

[Ed Oden]

Neil, thanks for posting!  With respect to the last picture, my initial thought was that the chute in the background is the 6th tee, with the 3rd hole in the foreground and the 6th green/7th tee area obscured between and below.  But the more I look at it, I'm not sure.

This is more a reply to Ed Oden and not an attempt to hi-jack the thread. 

Ed,

I have a whole disc of photos that were part of the original collection that Neil's photos on this thread were a part of.  I will be putting something together soon that will show off some of Maxwell's original bunkering at Dornick Hills and several other courses.

Chris

Chris, I look forward to seeing it.  FYI, I've been a bit diverted this summer.  With any luck, I'll turn back to the Maxwell stuff soon.

[Sven Nilsen]

Great photos Neil.  

Here's a shot of the old 16th, which can be seen in the background of your photo of the 15th:




This photo shows the 8th in its earliest stages.  You can pick out the small bump in the fairway that shows up your second photo:




As for the last photo, I'm a bit stumped.  From the general layout of the land (sloping off to the left in the photo, it looks like it was taken in a northwesterly directlion.  It also appears that its on the higher ground, perhaps in the most northern part of the property.  One thought was you're somehow looking at the 8th green from the back right side with the 2nd fairway appearing in the break of the trees.  Another thought is its a shot down the 10th fairway with the 17th green/18th tee area appearing through the gap, with the big group of trees being the area between 10 and 18.  



Here's an early aerial of the course to help the analysis:

[Will Lozier]

Too bad that bunker on #14 is gone!  It is even more interesting than the one on #10.

I will also say that the old 16th looks much more interesting to me (certainly more natural) than it's replacement.

Cheers

[CJ Carder]

Any chance this could have been taken up on the 4th tee with 3 green sort of short left and not very visible?  That would make the hole through the trees 5 fairway?

And in the aerial above - at what point did they move the fairway bunker on 2 to the outside of the dogleg?  From that picture, it looks like you had to either fly it or play out to the right of it, so it was there moreso to force the player to think before trying to hit it down the hill.

[Ben Sims]

Some interesting discussion points

--Humorous to see 18 (then 9) look so utterly the same as today's version.

--I like the shape of today's #3 better than the one in the aerial

--#15's fairway is insanely large

--The bunker on #14 is indeed spectacular, but is proof that the ODG's weren't perfect.  Its position is suspect IMO, and overly penal.

[David Stewart]

And in the aerial above - at what point did they move the fairway bunker on 2 to the outside of the dogleg?  From that picture, it looks like you had to either fly it or play out to the right of it, so it was there moreso to force the player to think before trying to hit it down the hill.

Daniel Wexler wrote a great piece on the evolution of ANGC here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/wexler-daniel-augusta/

It is a hole-by-hole discussion of the changes over the years.

[Sven Nilsen]

And in the aerial above - at what point did they move the fairway bunker on 2 to the outside of the dogleg?  From that picture, it looks like you had to either fly it or play out to the right of it, so it was there moreso to force the player to think before trying to hit it down the hill.

Daniel Wexler wrote a great piece on the evolution of ANGC here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/wexler-daniel-augusta/

It is a hole-by-hole discussion of the changes over the years.

Dave:

I did a thread this spring that expanded on Dan's analysis:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51383.0.html

Here are three photos of the 10th from that thread.  Are those the same trees that are in the mystery photo?

[Sven Nilsen]

Some interesting discussion points

--Humorous to see 18 (then 9) look so utterly the same as today's version.

--I like the shape of today's #3 better than the one in the aerial

--#15's fairway is insanely large

--The bunker on #14 is indeed spectacular, but is proof that the ODG's weren't perfect.  Its position is suspect IMO, and overly penal.

Ben:

Interesting thoughts on the old bunker on 14.  Would like to see the distances from the tee to clear it.  Designed to protect the ideal line into the green, if knocking it over the bunker was a possibility for longer hitters, it added a bit of a heroic nature to the hole.

[Alex Miller]

If you look at the aerial that Sven posted you can see a gap in the trees lining the right side (from the tee) of the tenth fairway.

In Neil's third picture, there is a gap in the trees which I believe is the same one, looking through to 18's tee and 17's green.

[John_Cullum]

Any chance this could have been taken up on the 4th tee with 3 green sort of short left and not very visible?  That would make the hole through the trees 5 fairway?

And in the aerial above - at what point did they move the fairway bunker on 2 to the outside of the dogleg?  From that picture, it looks like you had to either fly it or play out to the right of it, so it was there moreso to force the player to think before trying to hit it down the hill.

I am thinking that is from in front of 10 tee, a little to the right. The gap is Bubba Watson's territory

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks all for your contributions and thoughts. I'm more than convinced that the last photo is of the 10th looking at the outside of the dogleg with the green out of shot down to the left. And as John pointed out, the gap may well have hosted a Bubba in the future.

[Rick Shefchik]

Neil, one more comment to bolster the guess that the last photo is of the tenth fairway: In researching old golf course photos, a good rule of thumb is to first compare the hole to numbers 1, 9, 10 and 18. Many of those photos were made by newspaper photographers who didn't see the point in wandering too far from the clubhouse to get something that would satisfy the sports editor.

[Robert Kimball]

I think you got it. I agree that it is from the 10th teebox.

Great pictures. God, look at how great the course looked with minimal tree intrusion.

[Kalen Braley]

Neil,

I don't think thats 10 fairway with 18 in the background.  The primary reason is because when you are on 10 fairway, its not uphill to 18 fairway from that part of the hole.  There is a very clear ridge line that goes uphill in that picture, but on Google Earth this shows that the corresponding parts of 10 fairway and 18 fairway are basically the same height.

After further review.  I think that picture is the following:

Someone standing on 7 Tee, looking back to the 6th green with the 5th fairway in the background.  I confirmed this uphill portion on Google Maps, as 5 fairway is some 15-20 higher than the 6th green, which is what it looks like in this picture.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kalen:

Its not the 18th fairway you see through the gap, its either an area around where the old 11th tee used to be or its somewhere near the 18th tee/17th green.  I think the view here is actually slightly over the 10th green, which you can't really make out in the photo.  There's a dark line that runs horizontally on the left side which might actually be Mac's bunker.  If you look at its angle, its not at the same angle of the tree shadows that are evident above it in the picture.

Here's the Olmsted plan, which gives some idea of the elevation changes:

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

While the elevation profile does work with that explanation, what doesn't work is the lack of the massive McKenzie bunker....

It would clearly appear in that photo covering most of the left hand side of the fairway in that photo.

Additionally the thickness of the stand of trees doesn't match.

Compare this, only a few sparse trees:



To this, many many more trees, a lot thicker:

[Alex Miller]

The direction of the shadows fits with it being the 10th hole too.

Kalen I think this photo is aimed right of the Mackenzie bunker and from much farther back.

[Kalen Braley]

The direction of the shadows fits with it being the 10th hole too.

Kalen I think this photo is aimed right of the Mackenzie bunker and from much farther back.

That's the problem with much further back... that patch of green in the distance would have to be 18.

But the 10th and 18th fairways are the same height...not like what the picture shows with a ridge that goes up 15-20 feet to the next fairway.