News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« on: May 03, 2012, 06:51:00 AM »
I'm not looking for a debate about how they evolved/devolved over time. Rather, I'd just enjoy hearing about which greens and/or green complexes have stood out for you - for playability or aesthetics. Insights into the logic that was part of the design are good but not necessary. Simply pointing out which ones you found especially appealing is fine - you don't have to defend an instinctive attraction with some elaborate theory - although going into that area is fine as well. Photos would be nice if you happen to have them. It's ok if you don't though.
There are, of course, many aspects which could be considered - such as greens designed to be moderately challenging vs. ones intended to be strongly challenging - greens designed to receive short irons vs. long irons. Feel free to share whatever thoughts you feel inclined to regarding the work he did with the greens and immediately surrounding areas.
Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 08:18:15 AM »
Chris,

Mountain Ridge's greens are quite unique, with unusual, pronounced internal contouring on some, slopes on others and a combination on still others.

When Brad Klein first saw them he was surprised and intrigued, but I'll let Brad comment on his impressions.

I think the internal contouring, with vertical and horizontal spines/ridges, plateaus and slopes, in combination with one another makes them so unique.

I can't recall another Ross course with so much internal contouring, plateaus and slopes.

Plainfield's greens are neat, but I don't recall any plateaus/tiers like those at Mountain Ridge and the internal contours aren't as pronounced.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 08:44:17 AM »
Chris, it's a matter of debate in this area, but White Bear Yacht Club still credits Ross as its designer...so I will too for the time being. That being said, those greens have to be seen to be believed. Wonderful and really extreme for a Ross greens...they are also really fun and go along well with the wild and natural site along White Bear Lake, MN. I would suggest Mr. Mucci take a trip to "fly-over" country to compare WBYC to Mountain Ridge's greens.

On the opposite side of the spectrum would be Old Elm Club, which was routed by Colt but built by Ross (including the greens). They are really neat green complexes that range from elevated and "reverse saucepan" to low lay of the land style. Each are more subtle than WBYC or I'm sure Mountain Ridge but the internal contouring is very much there.
H.P.S.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 09:27:36 AM »
Chris:

I played my first Ross at age 22:  French Lick.  The greens were an eye opener :o.  I am sure Ran's pictures can give everyone some idea of their contours.

Bart

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 09:33:49 AM »
Chris:

I played my first Ross at age 22:  French Lick.  The greens were an eye opener :o.  I am sure Ran's pictures can give everyone some idea of their contours.

Bart

Oh yeah, good call Bart. I forgot about French Lick. Awesome greens there!
H.P.S.

Scott Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 09:52:27 AM »
French Lick's are indeed a jaw-dropper.

But the greens at Broadmoor, also here in Indiana, are the first I ever played that truly made me giggle like a child.  Ridiculously fun, especially when playing them for the first time.  They are only slightly less severe than FL's, but for they -appear- much more subtle. 
Therefore you don't really understand just how badly you've wounded yourself with poorly-chosen aggression until you are actually marking your downhill 3-footer and realize that if you don't happen to find again the stray blade of long grass that acted as a kickstand, your ball might just roll to Kokomo.

That said, all of the half-dozen Ross courses I've ever played aree west of Ohio, so my experiences are limited.  The greens at Broadmoor/Colorado Springs always startled me with their ability to suspend, if not reverse, the effects of gravity.   

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2012, 10:06:18 AM »
Back to the (almost) beginning, Essex County Club.  What a great set of greens there.  Almost all are noteworthy in some respect, but my favorites are #6, #10, #13, and #16.  Good luck remembering all the subtle breaks on those four!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2012, 10:12:27 AM »
Pat, thanks for taking time to respond.
Actually, Mountain Ridge was one of the main courses I was thinking about when I was considering this post. I would imagine they are are among the very best greens you could see on a Ross course today - or maybe right up there with any American course for that matter.

Pat, thanks for the suggestion. I remember it being a highly regarded course - but I haven't had a close look at it yet. I do regret not getting up there when I lived in Minneapolis.

Bart, French Lick was another one I was thinking of! I hadn't realized how great the course was until Ran reviewed it. It appears to be one of his best courses.

I'm guessing Aronomink is right up there as well?

Here is a very good thread on the Mountain Ridge greens:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=de35863dd4982936c2b00a877629f6c4&topic=46011.0

Here is a 1923 article on Old Elm I was looking through fairly recently.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1923/gi184l.pdf
"Several of the natural greens are gently convex in form—a type of surface rarely seen in recent architecture. Present day
construction also tends to smaller greens and usually to mounds or ridges to mark the back limits of the green. One can not resist the impression that the architecture characteristic of seaside links has influenced that of Old Elm."

Thanks for the Broadmoor suggestion Scott. Indiana is more than a little underrated for golf, isn't it?

Brad, I've only heard really good things about Essex.

Thanks all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 10:15:57 AM »
White Bear Yacht Club, MN - if indeed they are his
Essex County Club, MA
Oyster Harbors, MA
Broadmoor, IN
Kahwka, Erie, PA - great mix of different types
Rolling Rock, PA - original nine
and of course Pinehurst #2

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 10:28:06 AM »
I love the 7th and 12th greens at Sedgefield.  Maybe it's more about the actual green site at #7 but #12 is a 240 yards par 3 with a wicked horseshoe two-tiered green.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 12:07:33 PM »
Chris,

Is there a perceptible difference in the greens at Pinehurst # 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 ?

Is there a common thread or are there distinctions ?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 12:18:49 PM »
I really like the greens at Grosse Ile and its hard to pick a few because they so well as a set.  Yet, probably my favourites are #s 5 & 10,  Though I like 1, 2, 14 & 17 a lot too.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 12:45:40 PM »
Chris,

I wish I had a good shot of the two tiered green on 14 at Southern Pines, but I don’t.  Here’s a few photos of some that I’ve enjoyed with a brief explanation.

10 at Oakland Hills – Looking from the back right, this meandering green has a cool back left hole location where the ball feeds back but has a little stop behind.



11 OH – Looking from the back left, here’s the saddle style green that sits high above the approach.




7 at Brookside – here’s a shot short right of the “buttcrack” green.  Standing on the tee you can see the seam that runs through the middle.




16 at Brookside – Take your desk and lift the back left corner of it and you’ve got this green!




Here’s another shot from behind looking down the huge slope.  The drop is incredible and I believe it’s close to 12 feet down to the front left corner.




18 at Inverness.  This is looking left from the right where the right 2/3 of the green sits higher than that hole location.  Then there’s the cool fall off there as well.




6 at the ‘Nole where the correct angle coming in is key!



BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2012, 01:11:36 PM »
I wish I had the pictures to back me up, but I think Canton Brookside has a number of fantastic green complexes, in addition to the ones mentioned by Jonathan.

The first one that comes to mind is #8, which has a severe false front and is surrounded by large mounds on the right and left sides.  The only really flat spots are the middle and the back left.  I've always loved it.

I also love the green on #14.  The hole itself is a short par 3 of no more than 150 yards, but the green is severely pitched from back to front.  It's very similar to #16.

Finally, I always remember #15, which has maybe the trickiest false front on the entire course.  The hole plays uphill, so it's tough to notice the false front until you get to the green.  It's very subtle yet very severe when you're on the green.  Very easy to putt off the green (which I have done several times...during the same round).

I wish I had pictures because words don't do those greens justice.

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2012, 01:14:35 PM »
Quote
Is there a perceptible difference in the greens at Pinehurst # 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 ?

Patrick, I can only give you my perceptions for whatever they are worth. I would say there are several really interesting greens on No. 3 Course. Not all of them - but several I would say are No. 2 Lite. There are some really challenging ones there - more interesting than you'd think. The greens on No. 5 Course are probably the least interesting. You can tell many of them (which were part of the original No.3 Course) have been flattened. Most members love that. 5 is the course they play the most. No. 3 was a very good course in its day. They used to play the first two rounds of the North-South Open there, in fact. It's still a pretty fun course for me because there is still some interesting Ross work left - and a couple of the holes they added when Richard Tufts was ripping apart the four courses Ross had perfected are fun to play.
No. 4 is a Fazio deal. There are not many striking undulations partly because the greens are usually rolling quite fast. The areas around the greens are over-amped versions of the roll off areas of No. 2. You'll often find yourself with quite a daunting pitch from way down below the green - like where you can just see the the top part of the flagstick.
There are not many internal undulations on No. 1 although several tilt which makes for some adventurous putting when they are running pretty fast. And sometimes they are really fast. You should have seen the look on this one really good players face when one of his putts slowly trickled off the green and down the hill. None of us could believe it. Some of the No. 1 greens are practically dead flat and they need to fix that properly.
No. 2 has been commented on here once or twice before so you won't need my views on those greens.
So, I'd say No. 3 has the most interesting greens other than 2 Course.
That's just my take - there are other views I'm sure.

Interesting to hear about Grosse Ile Sean. I'll have to take a look at that.

Thanks for the photos Jonathan. Definitely some interesting work there.
I have a photo of the hole you were referring to. It doesn't show the green very well but it may give you an idea. There are several 2 tiered greens there - and they are angled rather than straight across.
 14 at SPGC:


16 at SPGC:


4 at SPGC:
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 01:19:02 PM by Chris Buie »

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 01:31:14 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for the photo of #14.  I made the mistake on my initial play of placing my tee ball on the upper tier when the hole was on the lower tier.

Hoover,

Here you go….

Short of #8



From #9 tee




My photos of #14 are too bright and you can’t see the slope or even see the huge ridge running through it.  Sorry.


Here’s up the hill short on #15.  The photo isn’t that good as it flattens the slope some.



Looking back though you can see the slope a little more.  Bye bye ball!



Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 04:02:40 PM »
I'm a little surprised to see Southern Pines mentioned.  I've played there several times with a friend who's a member.  I've always been told that those greens were totally reworked, and not by Ross.  It is my understanding that the Ross layout remains, but not the greens.

I can think of several green sites at Teugaga CC that I never fail to enjoy.  Wish I had pictures of #1, #4, #7, #9, 11, #15, #16, and #18.  Great examples of Ross green sites.


Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 05:44:48 PM »
The greens at Holston Hills are generally not wildly contoured, though they do occasionally have steep slopes and false fronts.  But the course is built on land that slopes and drains toward the nearby Holston River.  Not surprisingly Ross canted some of the greens against the natural slope, some with the natural slope, and some neutral with respect to the natural drainage pattern.   Coupled with his subtle contouring artistry, the greens have both variety and flexibility in hole placements, and the result is a mix of approach and putting challenges that provide a fascinating array of choices for members. 

Check out Bradley Anderson's review of Holston for some good pics:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46182.0.html.   

A few examples:

Right out of the gate at #1, the green is canted from high back to lower front with an orientation directly against the natural slope, on which the uphill putts are faster than you expect and the downhill putts slower.  Makes for enjoyable watching if you hit a run-up shot to a back pin at this longish par 4 (450 from the back tees), as a properly struck ball tends to roll out nicely towards the target.  But if you’re on the green and above the hole, you don’t have to deal with a super-fast downhill putt, which I think is a great design choice for the first hole.

Holes 1, 9, 10 and 18 are all side-by-side on the land below the clubhouse.  Each hole has a different choice in the green of cant vs. the natural slope. # 9 and #18 greens are canted with the natural slope, 18 steeper than 9.  10 is pretty flat, but is obscured from the fairway by how the green is cut into a little hillside.

On the long par 3 14th, Ross built a diabolical, steeply sloped green with a steep false front that cants against the natural drainage toward the river, though it is benched into a steep hill sloping away from the river.  Succinctly put from the club’s web site description: “There are numerous contour features within the putting surface that separate the green into distinct cupping areas and one can expect a rainbow bender of considerable speed if one’s ball is located outside of the flag plot.”

The par 4 15th green is canted from high left to low right against the natural drainage.  The first time I played it I hit the green in regulation and had a 30-35 foot downhiller that I thought would be pretty fast.  The first putt made it about halfway to the hole, and I left the second putt 4-5 feet short.  I 4-putted that first time and to this day, more than 30 rounds later, am still more often than not completely confused by that green and happy to 2-putt any time.

On #18, steeply canted from back to front with the natural slope, if you are above the hole and coming straight down hill, you do well to keep the ball on the green, and if you have a longer sidehill putt you’re often looking at playing 12-15 feet of break to get the ball close.

At Holston Hills, I think the greens provide a lot of fun and variety for members, on what at first glance may seem to be relatively “flattish” greens compared to greens with the dramatic hills and hollows pictured above.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2012, 12:58:08 PM »
But the course is built on land that slopes and drains toward the nearby Holston River.  Not surprisingly Ross canted some of the greens against the natural slope, some with the natural slope, and some neutral with respect to the natural drainage pattern.   Coupled with his subtle contouring artistry, the greens have both variety and flexibility in hole placements, and the result is a mix of approach and putting challenges that provide a fascinating array of choices for members. 

Eric:
This is exactly how I would describe the greens at Bald Peak Colony, but by substituting Lake Winnipesaukee and the surrounding mountains for the Holston River.  There aren't a lot of internal contours, but the greens have lots of slopes that are fun and confounding at the same time.
 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2012, 01:54:10 PM »
This should come as no surprise, but CC Buffalo. With the impending restoration, spaces that were lost over time will be reclaimed.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2012, 04:11:18 PM »
I don't have a lot of Ross experience but Aronimink's greens are fantastic.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Ross greens do you find particularly appealing?
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2012, 04:25:36 PM »
Not trying to sound too much like a homer, but Schuylkill Country Club has some awesome greens. 

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back