Royal Cinque Ports - Why Isn't It A Top 100 Course?

[Mark Pearce]

The BUDA dinner at RCP was a great evening.  To be entirely fair, we were treated every bit as well at Porthcawl without the benefit of Chappers' connections.  Of course, Porthcawl don't have the lovely Laura but an equally alcoholic late night was had by all.......

[Bill_McBride]

The BUDA dinner at RCP was a great evening.  To be entirely fair, we were treated every bit as well at Porthcawl without the benefit of Chappers' connections.  Of course, Porthcawl don't have the lovely Laura but an equally alcoholic late night was had by all.......

I don't recall a bad dinner at a Buda, Liphook was quite nice. 

[Scott Warren]

The social fabric of a club is as crucial as it is delicate, IMO.

For many, it's what makes the club what it is and drives their desire to belong.

Certainly this "drinking culture" at Deal is part of a fantastic social culture -- though not, I would argue, what underpins that culture -- that makes the club such a wonderful place to spend time.

I'm not one for an early morning tipple before golf (I don't mind a brekkie beer when the occasion warrants it, just not before I'll be swinging golf clubs), but I like what it represents at RCP.

The fact that you can get a drink at fairly well any time of the day but we only do a posh lunch on a Sunday, that golf clothes can be worn almost everywhere in the house but we do have a very nice jacket and tie room, that rules are really quite few but are adhered to strictly... these are the things that to me represent a fantastic culture that it makes me really glad to be a part of -- even from 15,000km away.

And even though those things don't singularly make the club what it is, if you start changing them you threaten that club culture and atmosphere that make Royal Cinque Ports what it is -- a club that with great success is both a local members' club and a weekend escape for Londoners, boasts publicly educated local firemen (and B&B operators) as members who mingle brilliantly with some of the poshest toffee in England.

It's a wonderful place, and I'd agree with Sev and Mark that any change that threatened to erode that would be misguided.

[Mark Pearce]

The BUDA dinner at RCP was a great evening.  To be entirely fair, we were treated every bit as well at Porthcawl without the benefit of Chappers' connections.  Of course, Porthcawl don't have the lovely Laura but an equally alcoholic late night was had by all.......

I don't recall a bad dinner at a Buda, Liphook was quite nice. 

I completely agree.  It's just that RCP and Porthcawl stand out in my memory as nights when we went on into the early hours at the host clubs, both of whose staff treated us royally and with great patience. 

[Sean_A]

Unless the course is not as busy with the higher fees, I fail to see how the pricing structure effects the social fabric of the club.  Someone please explain this theory to this backwoods Midwesterner.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

The BUDA dinner at RCP was a great evening.  To be entirely fair, we were treated every bit as well at Porthcawl without the benefit of Chappers' connections.  Of course, Porthcawl don't have the lovely Laura but an equally alcoholic late night was had by all.......

I don't recall a bad dinner at a Buda, Liphook was quite nice. 

I completely agree.  It's just that RCP and Porthcawl stand out in my memory as nights when we went on into the early hours at the host clubs, both of whose staff treated us royally and with great patience. 

Was just reinforcing your point!  The Deal dinner was terrific because of our speaker and the great food and drink and camaraderie.

[Mike Hamilton]

Wanted to add my two cents as I had the opportunity to play RCP last Sunday with my nine year old son. 

But first I wish to thank Mark Chaplin for hosting us and helping to make the last hours of our 3 day whirlwind England trip so special!

I have only played a handful (or maybe two handfuls) of Top 100 courses so have less experience to judge, but thoroughly loved the golf there and cannot quibble with the argument it should be Top 100 (although also agree with the argument that #85 v #135 is splitting hairs).  While I agree with some of the comments that the aesthetics (scale of the course, the seawall blocking most of the ocean views, etc.) probably work against it in terms of ratings, I found the quality of golf to be as consistently good, start to finish, as about any place I have played.  Since most has already been covered here I will not go into any detailed review but agree that variety of terrain and great greens were just outstanding!

I think not noted (in the 4 pages of posts) was that I also found the RCP to be a truly great balance of challenge and playability.  I am certainly one of the more average golfers here at GCA, but was able to knock done 6 or 7 or 8 pars (when I play with my 9 year I don't even bother trying to keep score).  However, most were after some pretty solid approach putts (I think I was a good 75 feet from the hole on 18 and managed to two-putt) and don't remember a single real chance at birdie.  I should note though we had the benefit of a pretty calm afternoon...but nonetheless felt Deal was tough but very fair and fun to play.

My son also thoroughly enjoyed the course, and managed a couple of pars from the forward tees.  It was his first time playing a links course and was a bit irritable after a tough start.  At one point (after losing a ball I think on the third hole) I just told him to drop on a good spot in the fairway so we could keep moving.  He argued "there is no flat spot to drop!".  However, he got the hang of it after about 6 holes and began to enjoy himself after a nice recovery out of a bunker on 7 and a great soft chip over a bunker on 8 that almost went in for birdie.  On 16 he was ecstatic when he landed in the big right bunker fronting the green about the challenge of trying to get to the green.  I told him not possible but he almost proved me wrong and left it at the top of the hill.  Finally, despite being 9, was were able to walk the complete 18 in three and half hours (definitely a record for him!).

Thanks again to Mark for a great afternoon...I certainly hope to get the chance to visit again!

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike I'm delighted you enjoyed your game and I agree playability is important for everyone. We are a members club and whilst it is important to us to offer a challenge to the better player in competitions the course must be enjoyable for the average member week in week out. Today in the South East Links handicap limit 0.9 only 3 players broke par on a pleasant sunny but breezy day (2-3 club wind).

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

155 pounds is too much period, but there are plenty of other clubs on both sides of the ocean that charge more and are also too expensive.  This includes 2 I am a member of. There is a place called LaFondas in Lafayette La where it had been 10 years before I went there and then remember going home. I went there more than once a week for many of those years.

[Scott Warren]

Twilight rate in summer is 80 quid after 4pm. Between the start of May and the end of September that is sufficient time to get 18 holes in comfortably. From early June to mid July you could play 36 if you weren't held up in front!

130 quid for 18 holes mid-week, but the all-day rate is only 155 and 155 for 18 at the weekend is an all-day rate of 185. It's not cheap, but I don't think it's extortionate for a course of the quality of RCP within such proximity of London.

[Sean_A]

Twilight rate in summer is 80 quid after 4pm. Between the start of May and the end of September that is sufficient time to get 18 holes in comfortably. From early June to mid July you could play 36 if you weren't held up in front!

130 quid for 18 holes mid-week, but the all-day rate is only 155 and 155 for 18 at the weekend is an all-day rate of 185. It's not cheap, but I don't think it's extortionate for a course of the quality of RCP within such proximity of London.

If requested to answer honestly and off the record, I wonder how many members would be happy to pay £130 for a game at Deal.  While I think Deal is great, and as a private club generous in opening its doors to visitors, £130 for game at RCP doesn't represent good value and so I would say the fee is extortionate.  Unfortunately, I think this trend of stupid green fees in London and the Southeast will continue to head in the direction it has for many years, but then how can one blame the club for not taking advantage of the envious position of being next door to Sandwich? 

Ciao

Ciao   

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

Have a look at the cost of visitor golf at the best clubs in/near New York, Sydney, Melbourne, San Francisco... There's nothing all that surprising about the prices charged at the likes of Deal, Sandwich, Walton Heath, Sunningdale etc. relative to their peers in/near other global cities.

I know I have paid more than £130 for a round of comparable golf elsewhere, so were I not a member of RCP I would say yes, I'd pay that much to play the course. Especially with the £155 all day rate and the £80 afternoon/twilight rate.

Your issue with high flagfall golf is understandable, but framing your grievances around RCPGC makes it appear your problem is with one club and not a worldwide culture.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Have a look at the cost of visitor golf at the best clubs in/near New York, Sydney, Melbourne, San Francisco... There's nothing all that surprising about the prices charged at the likes of Deal, Sandwich, Walton Heath, Sunningdale etc. relative to their peers in/near other global cities.

I know I have paid more than £130 for a round of comparable golf elsewhere, so were I not a member of RCP I would say yes, I'd pay that much to play the course. Especially with the £155 all day rate and the £80 afternoon/twilight rate.

Your issue with high flagfall golf is understandable, but framing your grievances around RCPGC makes it appear your problem is with one club and not a worldwide culture.

Scott

I take your point, there are many courses I won't pay full whack to see again, however, this thread is about Deal. 

While many reasons have been given for Deal not being top100, none strike me as deal breakers.  The reason I started this thread was due to my high placing of Deal on the Links100 site (#13) despite the few issues which bother me.  I guess the reservations of some is still perplexing to me to the point where I can't help but think extraneous factors are being too much weight in relation to the quality of the course.  I have long suspected that raters find ways to rate courses based on preference/experiences rather than on a cold, hard look at the design.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

155 pounds is too much period, but there are plenty of other clubs on both sides of the ocean that charge more and are also too expensive.  This includes 2 I am a member of. There is a place called LaFondas in Lafayette La where it had been 10 years before I went there and then remember going home. I went there more than once a week for many of those years.

Tiger, I remember you being indignant that Porthcawl was £75 in 2004.   I have always figured this question of visitor fees is a supply and demand issue.  The best thing is when one is invited to play at guest fee rate!  (Thank you Deal, Rye and Littlestone members!)

[Leo Barber]

The cheapest way to play a course should always be as a member

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill It was great seeing you and kathleen last night. I agree I have been generally critical of the high visitor green fees. I find much of it is traced to corporate entertainment etc. I do not blame the clubs for trying t get as much gross money for as few rounds as possible. But i do not have to say it is great policy or good for golf either. If we do not speak up then the clubs will not know there are golfers who say no to them. I am a bit silly in that if I look at what I actually pay per round net net at some of the clubs I am a Member of it is higher than the visitor rate. That is especially the case the last two years where health has been an issue. However over the years, I do try to make sure the number for the year is well below a 100 dollars a round if I am going to stay a Member. I think some of the married men might apply that rule to how much their wifes spend each month on a per hump or BJ basis. I think 100 would be cheap. As a single man the number is well down there at the 20 dollar range. I have married friends that are in the thousand per hump. It irrates the heck out of them to be shown the bad economics of their situation.

[Mark Chaplin]

I'm getting confused we have members saying the subs and guest fees are too high and visitors who can access the course on most days including weekends saying the guest fees are too high. Tiger we are well aware there are people who will not pay a premium price. Just as Mercedes and BMW know some (most) people cannot afford their product, there are however cars - and golf courses - to suit every budget.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mark lets be serious I have played almost every high profile links course in the UK and many that are not.  I also only stay at nice hotels as well. However, As life goes by one chose where one spends their free time and I find golf at those prices to be a bad value. There are people who might have a different number where they feel golf and general entertainment/free time expenditures costs should be. There is a market for corporate travel and first time golfers. I doubt seriously many of the better courses will get people who play 10 plus times as a visitor at over 225 dollars a round. This is especially the case at over 300 dollars a round. Yes once or maybe twice but not over and over. I have played most of those high profile courses 5 to 20 times each. I feel no need to pay that now nor in the last 5 years. High dollar golf tourism has suffered in the UK post 2008. It is a balancing test for the club. What is the price to max gross dollars for as little visitor play as possible. That is good economics but completely against the marketing pitch of RCP which sells itself as a visitor friendly and generally a great place to hang out.  Much as the joke I was pointing out a married men and the cost of sex for some of them. It is just not a good deal. As a Member you might think twice about your membership of you payed over 225 dollars a round for more than one or two years. I love Mountain Lake like you love RCP. Yet I dropped the Membership when i joined another west coast club and found that my average cost would be  more like 300 to 400 dollars a round due to a fewer number of trips a year to the area. None of this is a slap at RCP. It is just a view that visitor play in the UK is too high now and alo is in general at high demand clubs in the US. Of course the US courses use the same economics test and frankly most do not care about the visitor other than a s revenue source. I have always understood in the UK it is meant to keep costs low and I mean very low for the members.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tiger members who play once a week pay a little under £30 a week or $45, some play less and a good many more. A country member playing 10 times a year pays roughly £60 or $90 a visit. Foreign membership is around 25% of full subs and as my dear friend Mike Whitaker forgets there is (currently) no initiation fee.

As I keep on saying here significant dollar based golf tourism affects a few score of clubs is the UK, many in Scotland and Northern Ireland. At RCP US/Canadian golf would be 2% or 3% of turnover, very welcome but certainly not a driver when setting strategy and pricing.

For visitors who want to play multiple times there are pay and play courses. Canny visitors be they local, national or foreign time their visits with the many open competitions and open weeks found in the UK and Ireland. At RCP in August you can have 10 days of competitive golf as a visitor for around £200. Many fine clubs hold such events and they prove marvellous value for money.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Well said Mark especially on the competitions. You hit the right price points and everything to make great sense and value.

[Mark Chaplin]

I joined RCP as a result of playing in numerous Deal Weeks in August. As a youngster with cash in short supply open weeks were the best way if playing decent courses. Among the goodies I know of are Saunton , Pennard, Clyne, Tenby, Princes and Littlestone.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike - I just checked your subscription rose by £19 this year from £375 to £394, for the first time ever overseas members are charged £50 to their bar card making a total of £444. I doubt there is a member who struggles to spend £50 on a 3 day visit.

The subs have gone up 5.06%.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike - I just checked your subscription rose by £19 this year from £375 to £394, for the first time ever overseas members are charged £50 to their bar card making a total of £444. I doubt there is a member who struggles to spend £50 on a 3 day visit.

The subs have gone up 5.06%.

Whitty spills more than £50. 

[Sean_A]

Deal has quietly climbed the league table from 135 to 117.  What are the chances it climbs another 18 spots 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Deal has quietly climbed the league table from 135 to 117.  What are the chances it climbs another 18 spots 

Ciao

Which league table, Sean?